Great Sage From Writing

Please please please please move this free GP further down the tech tree. I think the Drama GP and Engineering are both fine where they are but the writing one is awful. Having played something like 15-20 MP games in the last 3 weeks nearly EVERY game has everyone beelining to be the first person to writing and being drastically behind for the following 70 turns if they aren't the first one.

I think I read something about Kael modifying the effects of the academy. I don't think this is the way to go personally. The academy gives +50% and for the first 50% turns +50% isn't that much depending on what resources you hav eand if you cottage up. I don't have an issue with people who chose to use mysticism and remove a tile worker in order to pop an early GS and do academy or settle or bulb. The Imbalance is the Free GS that basically requires you to go for writing. It's awful honestly and there's really no way to not do it.

Possibly the Great Scientist could be moved to something else education/tech related further down the tree?

I'd rather "bulbing" be removed all together, but that's just my opinion.

Well that's another issue that requires discussion as I'm sure some love it and some hate it. I hope we can all agree that as far as MP goes (and even SP) the writing thing is just plain bad.

Not really sure I agree. Science isn't the be-all end-all in FFH like it is in normal Civ. You can just about conquer the world if you get Bronze and Axemen before anyone else, and even a 'decent' science advantage doesn't generally hold up to it, because they spent more on the overhead of setting up said advantage.

Maybe the reason everyone ends up 70 turns behind is that they're putting all their eggs in one basket, rather than pursuing different strategies to counter the Writing GS. As Zechnophobe said, while your MP opponents are all beelining Writing to try and get the Sage, they're ignoring Bronze Working, and you can burn their cities at will with your axemen rush.

Well, in case you haven't read the bug thread for next patch, the GS has been moved down the tech tree.

xienwolf said:

Well, in case you haven't read the bug thread for next patch, the GS has been moved down the tech tree.

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14. Free Sage moved from Writing to Arcane Lore.

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ROFL. I checked it like yesterday or something and it only had 2 things and now there's 15. Can you tell Kael just got back?

I can't wait for Patch E now I freaking HATE the early GS. It'll be so nice being able to go for like crafting early and not feel like you're costing yourself the game on turn 7 lol

I don't think that Academies should be nerfed at all. Instead, other great people should be given their own buildings, or other abilities. I'm actually thinking I may change the Bazaar of Mammon so that instead of being a national wonder it can be built in any city but only by a great merchant (it would probably have to be nerfed slightly). I can't think of a good building for great engineers, so they will instead have all worker abilities with a much higher work rate. I haven't decided what to give the other ones yet. They all may gain access to some spells.

I think that moving the sage to Arcane Lore is a good idea. It fits better thematically, but by main reason for liking the change is that writing is a very useful tech, and I don't like having to avoid it in advanced starts. Getting this tech that way means that no one will get the free GP.


I'll probably add some more ways to get free Great People in my modmod. Building the Tower of Divination or being the first to Divination or Priesthood may give you a great prophet. I may make there be 2 techs that will grant a free version of each great person.

I don't think the Acadamy is better than any of the other units abilities. It's only better when it comes to early.

In my opinion the Great Merchants are one of the best specialists. Settling them helps with researching (by covering for other costs so you can increase slider), AND increases gold output when not researching. And the +1 Food is just a better bonus than +1 hammer. (1 Food pays for half a specialist, or half a citizen, or a whole citizen under sac the weak. The hammer on the other hand is of course not affected by health issues).

A Great Engineer can rush wonders and is one of the best specialists to settle in your city (+3 Hammers and +3 Science which is half of what a great sage gives).

The Great Sage is nice for the Acadamy and the extra sci output when bulbing, which is nice if you want Mages earlier.

Bards are nice for that culture rush you sometimes need, and one of the ways to a culture victory. They also got some interesting Bulb choices. (Settling them is quite nice too, and sometimes a better path to Culture victory, the +3 Gold is nice too)

And we all know what Great Priests can do. When settling it's like a combination of the Merchant and Great Engineer, with -1 hammer than Great Engineer, and -1 Gold (and -1 Food) from the Merchant. Plus you want these if you are going to win by the Altar or just want a shrine.

Just quickly on the topic of the academy: the problem with the academy's 50% was mainly that it removed an element of choice. There is no conceivable situation in which it would be preferable to settle a great sage over building the academy. The +50% research is always better than what the GS gives. So that's a poor mechanic, gameplay wise.

Bringa said:

Just quickly on the topic of the academy: the problem with the academy's 50% was mainly that it removed an element of choice. There is no conceivable situation in which it would be preferable to settle a great sage over building the academy. The +50% research is always better than what the GS gives. So that's a poor mechanic, gameplay wise.

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Early in the game getting 3 science plus 3 great people points to spawn a second GS is stronger then the extr ascience from an academy. Combine that with Philo and/or Pacifism...

I see what you're getting at but I don't know if it's quite that cut and dry.

Bringa said:

Just quickly on the topic of the academy: the problem with the academy's 50% was mainly that it removed an element of choice. There is no conceivable situation in which it would be preferable to settle a great sage over building the academy. The +50% research is always better than what the GS gives. So that's a poor mechanic, gameplay wise.

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You can only build the acadamy once. Settling is endless. (Sure you can build acadamy in many cities, but if you concentrate on one city with the sages you can get hell of a researcher, add the 100% from the Crown on top of that!)

Amusingly, the latest patch changed this, and I applied it halfway through a game.

To my surprise, I got another free sage (Already one from writing) when I hit arcane lore (Where the free great sage now comes from). Really made me blink before I realized what happened.

MagisterCultuum said:

I don't think that Academies should be nerfed at all. Instead, other great people should be given their own buildings, or other abilities. I'm actually thinking I may change the Bazaar of Mammon so that instead of being a national wonder it can be built in any city but only by a great merchant (it would probably have to be nerfed slightly). I can't think of a good building for great engineers, so they will instead have all worker abilities with a much higher work rate. I haven't decided what to give the other ones yet. They all may gain access to some spells.

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How about making great bards able to build a culture-boosting building, like a theatre or something? A big temple (for any religion) for great prophets? A big forge for great engineers?

Calbrenar said:

Early in the game getting 3 science plus 3 great people points to spawn a second GS is stronger then the extr ascience from an academy. Combine that with Philo and/or Pacifism...

I see what you're getting at but I don't know if it's quite that cut and dry.

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GS doesn't give GPP

Calbrenar said:

Early in the game getting 3 science plus 3 great people points to spawn a second GS is stronger then the extr ascience from an academy. Combine that with Philo and/or Pacifism...

I see what you're getting at but I don't know if it's quite that cut and dry.

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Well, a settled GS becomes a Great Specialist, so doesn't contribute GPP, so that isn't quite a valid arguement.

But it is true that the Academy is flat out better, until you already have one. That is where settling comes into play.

ah right i'm thinking about the sage icons from great library lol

Calbrenar said:

Early in the game getting 3 science plus 3 great people points to spawn a second GS is stronger then the extr ascience from an academy. Combine that with Philo and/or Pacifism...

I see what you're getting at but I don't know if it's quite that cut and dry.

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As someone else pointed out, you don't get GPP from a settled GP. Also, there is no conceivable situation in which a city has only three research but managed to pop a GS already, so that argument is moot as well. Finally, yes you CAN spread out your GS to different cities to build academies there, but again there really isn't a choice--you will have a core of high science output cities, and all of those MUST have academies, and after that you will settle in your capital.

What I'm saying is that making the academy weaker, but still percentual, introduces an element of choice, which is what a game is all about.

Bringa, you are throwing out golden ages and instant researches as options. While I tend to not use the latter much, there's a fair bit to be said about the former. A golden age impacts production as well as economy (And doubles GPP growth during the time, making it'cheaper' on great people than it often seems).

Yeah Golden Ages are great, and I think everyone (including me) need to use them more.

I'm actually being outresearched by quite a bit in my game but I've managed to stay ahead of him by using the Infernal Grimoire and Tower of Divination with a little bit of style. I like the idea of reducing academies.