Post-Apopolytic Game

I was wondering, what would happen if, say, the entire world blew up, and only a few civilisations survived with the knowledge of a FEW technologies. So I whipped open my simulator (Civ IV), and simulated

I am playing a regular game, with one modified rule: At the beginning of the game, I open WB, and give EVERYONE (including the barbs) 5 FREE techs, from ANY era, randomly.

So, here is the list:

Me (Dutch): Priesthood, Polytheism, Bronze Working, Astronomy, Plastics

Ragnar (Vikings): Priesthood, Currency, Philosophy, Refridgeration, Radio

Darius (Persians): Currency, Engineering, Alphabet, Philosophy, Milatery Tradition

Napolean (French): Currency, Monotheism, Education, Chemistry, Electricity

Kublai Khan (Mongolia): Engineering, Monotheism, Music, Printing Press, Laser

Alexander (Greek): Optics, Construction, Civil Service, Democracy, Rocketry

Zara Yaqob (Ethiopia): Polytheism, Astronomy, Stealth, Ecology, Satellites

Suliman (Ottoman): Calender, Printing Press, Assembly Line, Flight, Computers

Suryavarman (Kymer): Mysticism, Mathematics, Music, Nationalism, Satellites

Ramesses (Egypt): Animal Husbandry, Hunting, Sailing, Liberalism, Satellites

Mao Zedong (China): Fishing, Currency, Machinary, Theology, Radio

Barbarians: Sailing, Banking, Theology, Superconductors, Stealth

A few notes:

China is POWERFUL (Machinery means that all they need is Iron Working and Archery, and they can spam Chu-Kon-Nu, which they have in the first 150 turns). I have my Unique unit REALLY quickly, and have almost circumnavigated the globe, but I don't know if the satellite nations have already bet me (I don't think they have). And Greece has already built the Apollo Program... The Ottomans have airports already (luckily, they don't have Infantry, which is what I initially feared. They need Rifling, and Gunpowder first... phew), and I have survived a 6 phalanx attack really early in the game by QUICKLY adopting slavary, and rushing two archers

Anything I have missed? Aside from my Galleon, and Chinas Chu-ko-nu, no-one else has insane units, and if I wanted to spread pollution through my cities, I COULD built the Three Gorges Dam... but there is no reason. France has ALREADY BUILT the Sistene Chapel.

Who is likely to win this game? What civ would YOU like to play as? And wish me luck. I have to check two things (I may have the wrong victory conditions and difficulty, it DOES seem mighty easy... So I may have to restart).

I do have the scenario if anyone wants to play.

[Edit]I am too tired, but after noticing that diplomatic victory was enabled (which I hate for two reasons: The AP, and the UN "No nukes" motion), I made a new one. Lets just say that I am afraid of Cyrus, as I don't know what effects having The Internet in the BC years will have on the game... methinks I should either be best buddies with him, or destroy him a few years after he builds it, which I think only requires Computers... and there are other things as well. 2 civs died from ARCHER attacks, which is un-heard off, and I am hoping cannons require more than just steel and iron... otherwise some other civs are going to have some ... interesting defenders (Defending Cannons FTW, if they start with steel!!) As for me, Fission, Economics, Literature, Archery and Chemistry isn't a GREAT start, but it does mean I have to bee-line Astronomy... simply because that unlocks my UU, Privateers, AND frigates, all in one go And I wonder if Joao survived, as he has MACHINE GUNS defending his cities (as long as they don't require Gunpowder, which I don't think they do...), which will make him IMPOSSIBLE to destroy (but luckily, not impossible to defend AGAINST, as machine guns don't attack [/Edit]

sounds like a fun idea. I would definitelly like to play as the Ottomans; build the Internes ASAP and never care about research again.

now THIS might be an interesting game
I'd put my money on Alexander though, having Bureaucracy and Representation that early might lead to a game-lasting advantage

Sigh... since it has so much interest, I will do two things:

I will attach 4 things, the two world-builder scenarios, and the two saves of the games.

Also, the NEW version has these initial techs:

Me: Fission, Economices, Literature, Archery, Chemistry

Salidan: Meditation, Satellites, Masonry, Mil. Trad., Philosophy

Cyrus: Divine Right, Optics, Pottery, Electricity, Computers

Suliman: Advanced Flight, Stealth, Mining, Medicine, Astronomy

Wang Kon: Metal Casting, Combustion, Astronomy, Calander, Steel

Toko (dead): SuperConductors, Monotheism, Literature, Fibre Optics, Currency

Joao: Education, Industrialism, Sci. Meth., Railroad, Economics

Zara Yaqob: Printing Press, Monotheism, Iron working, Sailing, Electricty

Isabella: Music, Hunting, Agriculture, Bronze Working, Aesthetics

Shaka (Probably Dead, But I'm not 100% sure): Monotheism, Corporation, Music, Compass, Optics

Mao Zedong: fission, Fibre Optics, Radio, Assembly Line, Refrigderation

Barb: Steel, Combustion, Monarchy, Alphabet, Mysticism

In order the attached files are:

Save game of the FIRST game
Save game of the SECOND game

Unfortunately, the World Builders CANNOT be saved... I guess I will have to make them to order, so if you want to play as a specific civ, with a specific difficulty, and specific victory conditions, just post here, and I will start a game for you

Is the terrain covered in fallout? To compensate for some nations having access to advantageous technology their starting locations could be dotted by more instances of fallout, -3 food, -3 hammers, -3 commerce.

As a more realistic variant, more technologically developed nations like the United States, China, and Europe would likely be targets in a nuclear war, so even were close to buildings tanks they might not have the ability to manufacture many for hundreds of turns, at which point less developed and harmed countries could take hold. Played on a world map, this could make for very interesting spearman vs. tank situations.

How much you wanna bet that Wang will build the Collosus, only to have it immediately obsolete!

digitCruncher said:

Unfortunately, the World Builders CANNOT be saved... I guess I will have to make them to order, so if you want to play as a specific civ, with a specific difficulty, and specific victory conditions, just post here, and I will start a game for you

Click to expand...

Strange, I can save the World Builder Scenario without problems. It goes to WorldBuilder folder. You can use my utility program to change it to play with any speed, any leader and any difficulty level. I have tested it only with Warlords but I have a feedback it works with BTS as well.

I have to say, this is a fun idea. It would make a great community RPC game, I might have to have a go and it would be tempting to start with Joao who has industralism for tanks!

Great idea! cheers

Well... I have saved the WB for the games, but I can't UPLOAD them to here, which is the main problem. I have them saved to my C:\ Drive, but I can't upload them, so I can give you the same experiance I have, if you want to

Also, in my experience, with the obvious exception of Computers, most modern techs are actually a WASTE (They obsolete more than they give. For example Joao, with only Reinaccance and higher techs has ONLY machine guns to count towards the many things he CAN'T build (monastories, Ivory, Wonders etc.). Also, most modern things require some modern techs, so it is unlikely that anyone ever gets a very powerful ship/unit right of the bat, as there are so many techs that are required first. So fallout isn't neccessery...

Finally, tanks need Industrialism. And Rifling. And Sci. Meth. And Combustion. All of these techs are needed to harvest the oil, and build the tanks. MARINES, on the other hand, are gonna be a nightmare, as they will appear with RIFLING, probably a good 50~100 turns before anyone else can get the infantry needed to kill them...

digitCruncher said:

Finally, tanks need Industrialism. And Rifling. And Sci. Meth. And Combustion. All of these techs are needed to harvest the oil, and build the tanks.

Click to expand...

Oh... Bummer! I didn't really think that through, I just thought Industrilaism = tanks = everyone is dead!

I might have to look at that list of techs again!

Without being able to open the game the scary techs are:

Artillery (enables both Artillery + Anti Tank Inf, both have no other pre-reqs)
Physics (airships out of the gate)
Gunpowder (muskets)
Railroad (Machine Guns - Joao has this one )
Edit: Military Science (Grens)

Once you have Iron hooked up Steel should enable cannons too.

I wonder which ones I've missed (or mistakes? )

Looks like fun

Try doing that, but then also spawning five nukes for yourself and nuking random squares. Not, like, in order to destroy stuff- you could nuke ocean, if you feel like it. Just in order to start global warming from the start. Post-Apocalyptic!

Well... in order for me, they are PROBABLY

Artillery. Who would guess we would use ANTI-TANKS as generic powerful attack units? 18, no counter until INFANTRY, and it comes packed with ARTILLERY, which are worse than cannons. Ack. I am glad I haven't run into anyone with THAT tech.

Computers. Internet in the BC years. Nuff said. If the AI is smart, it would chuck EVERYTHING into commerce and/or espionage, and just conquer the world.

Steel. Upon researching iron working, they have a 12 unit, which (thankfully) can't kill units. However, its a POWERFUL defender, right up until rifling (so everything between SWORDS and RIFLES can't kill it), which is IMMUNE to collateral, and can ATTACK up to 75% defence. Oh, and walls and castles don't bother it.

Railroad. Machine Guns. 18 , immune to collateral as well, which (thankfully) can't attack or bombard. However, they have no counter until CALVALRY, and even that is a stretch... Tanks are the best beat. Curse you +50% vs. Gunpowder units.

Gunpowder. If this person survives long enough to build 1 musket, they are impervious to all damage. Even worse if they are OTTOMANS, whose muskets get a +25% bonus against all melee, mounted, and archer units... making a 11.25 super weapon. And it requires NO prerequisites

Assembly Line: Factory + A way to power it + The pentagon. Is there any other way to scream "GET A HUGE MILITARY FOOL" other than having +75% production, and +2 (?) experience in all cities that need it? I don't think so.

Radio: This is BARELY scary at best, but then again: Rock&Roll + Eiffel Tower = +100% culture in one city, and +50% culture in ALL cities. Plus a monopoly on a VERY rare luxury resource... Liberalism would be... OK, but sacrificing early-game gold (in the military upkeep) for culture PROBABLY isn't the best thing, unless they are trying for a VERY early culture victory.

Those are my... 7 most powerful techs in order

Im not scared of the big bad Airship. If only because of the fact that it can only do a max of 10% damage, and against SoD's (where it REALLY counts) it doesn't even do that, as there is no collateral either Of course, you do have the problem of Airships vs. Navy, but meh. Thats what Frigates are for, when everyone else is running around with Caravels, and, if they are lucky, Galleons (Of course, it would be a slightly more difficult problem WITHOUT Chemistry, but I can still survive Air-ship strikes.) Oh, and given a choice between Airships, and Monastries, I would choose Monastries hands down. Even Forest Preserves wouldn't be worth it, at least, not without Ecology (Is that the one with the National Park?)

Realms Beyond ran a game where you could choose any tech to start the game with. Here's the briefing:
http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/c4tourney/adv19.html

Here are the results:
http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/c4tourney/adv19results.html

Note that this was in 'Vanilla Civ'. Sulla got a good result with Communism, which I see nobody's mentioned here, but would be scary if (say) Joao got his hands on it.

Unfortunately, in BtS, Communism doesn't do much.

Spies come with Alphabet now, and you don't get the Great Spy for researching it first... So that means you have The Kremlin (Is that -25% hurry production, or -33%?), and... Police State. OK, Police State would be INTERESTING, but not amazingly powerful... Constitution would be better (Jails AND Mt. Rushmore).

digitCruncher said:

Unfortunately, in BtS, Communism doesn't do much.

Spies come with Alphabet now, and you don't get the Great Spy for researching it first... So that means you have The Kremlin (Is that -25% hurry production, or -33%?), and... Police State. OK, Police State would be INTERESTING, but not amazingly powerful... Constitution would be better (Jails AND Mt. Rushmore).

Click to expand...

You don't get police state (that was Fascism), but state property. Any imperialist leader could spam settlers without having to consider the distance maintenance.

Communism would be VERY powerful. Corporations do not come around until Economics, and some have secondary techs, too. the +10% hammers is a nice little boost, and you get +1 from Workshops/Watermills.

Not to mention no Distance maintenance.

Very nice idea digitCruncher.

Rocketry for SAM Infantry is the killer tech as far as I can see, a 18 unit with no other prereqs. Anti-Tanks are only 14.

Banking is also a good starting tech to have, you can run Mercantilism from the start. And Alphabet would put you in a position to get some positive diplomacy while hoarding large numbers of techs.

I don't think Alphabet is worthwhile - it's too early a tech, you won't gain enough. The earliest tech I'd consider is Civil Service, which takes a while to research and gives Buearecracy (sp) at the time when it would be most powerful. You could also then use the Oracle or bulbing to reach Machinery, and get Maceman extra-early.

However, the first thing I mentioned was Communism and I stand by that - you've all quickly seen why, no distance maintenance, and superior improvements.

An update on my game:

Due to an unforseen interesting thing, Milatery Science (Gives Grenadiers, which, incedentally need no resources, so Milatery Science now takes the second-to-top spot for the best tech, after Artillery) requires ONLY Chemistry and MAYBE Literature (Im not sure). As a result, I built the Oracle, and Oracled MILATERY SCIENCE, and now I have a powerful army of a few archers, and around 5 Grenaders . I got Grenaders in 530 BC!)

My Continent friends are going to all be in tons of pain as soon as I get Astronomy, and find some NEW trading partners. And fix my economy, which is in shambles (I normally Oracle Currency, which comes just in time to save my economy).

In addition, I can now also get STEEL (But it takes nearly 100 turns to research.) I will research that as soon as I get Astronomy...

And Cyrus is never-ending about Fission, he REALLY wants it badly. I might just give it to him, and see if he builds the Manhatten Project.

Rock and Roll has been built, but I am not 100% sure how powerful people are on the other continent... as they may have some other... powerful techs that they can research because of the PA (Post-Apopolytic) techs I gave them.

Its interesting... Milatery Science is a DEVASTATING tech to start with. Grenadiers + (with the Oracle) Cannons. Ouch.

I have expanded with few cities, miles apart. Simply because there was a spot just ASKING for the Dutch to colonise. Fish + Corn + Horses + Plains (enough to feed 21 population with only 1 extra farm), + over half the spots being Coast or Ocean. 2 , 2 , 3 super-city, here I come I am getting Civil Service, so I can spread farms from the nearby river into my new city...

The barbs have discoved Combustion. You know how I know? They have Public Transportation in one of thier cities. Now, I wonder how they got that.

Question time: The barbs have a city with a building I can't get, a holy city, but it is MILES away (it is over on the other side of the continent). If I capture it, will I get the building? And if I don't, and I raze it, will everyone hate me for razing a holy city? Finally, I got the Olympics happening in Amsterdam, so thats all awesome Everyone is Islamic, and pleased with me. Not for long ...

Doesn't SAM infantry require Rifling, like regular Infantry? Its not on the Rifling tech path, so I would assume it WOULD require rifling...

And I change my opinion on Communism. State Property would be awesome (Not INSANELY awesome, but in the right circumstances, it would be VERY nice ). However, Biology anyone? (2 farms that don't need irragation + a host of other benifits I can't be bothered checking out on...) Finally, could ANYONE survive a person who starts with Artillery? Should we place Artillery on the "Don't touch as it is too broken to give early on" list (IE. Not a Post-Apopolytic (PA) tech)