[BTS] HOLY WARS Mod

Kailric · Apr 20, 2008

Holy War AP Resolution Mod

I am currently working on a mod that incorporates Holy Wars as actual game mechanics. The main development thread can be found in my signature.
At the moment this release only adds additional Resolutions to the AP and their effects. The effects are listed below.

Readme v 0.2 alpha

-only English is supported for the moment

Notes to Modders and SDK source Link:

Spoiler :

NOTICE: I use the terms Holy War and Infidel with no prejudice. As history records that during the Crusades Muslims call Christians "Infidels" and the Christians call the Muslims the same, although the Christians took the term from the Muslims. In this mod Infidels merely means any Civ that does not have the APs religion, and the AP can have any of the religions.

Update to 0.2 Alpha

Download 0.2 Alpha BtS 3.13
Link to surdanis's Crusader Combo
I. Rule Changes for v 0.2 alpha. All below rules should only effect the AP and not the UN.

A. New Force Civics (only one Civic is forced at a time in the Religion Category)
1. Organize to Strengthen our Faith (Force Organized Religion, can lead to Sanction or Declare Holy War)
2. Pacifism is the true way to Faith (Force Pacifism, leads to Promote World Peace)

B. Force Civics rules
1. if a force civic is PASSED, then you pass another the first is canceled
2. if Promote World Peace is passed and you cancel force civic Pacifism the Emissaries are recalled
3. if Holy War is Declared and you cancel the prereq Civic, the bonuses for Holy War are removed

C. Voting Rules
1. only Full Members can Defy resolutions, if a Full Member Defys they are then demoted to Voting Member and can not Defy until they vote yes on a resolution that passes
2. All War Related AP resolutions require Full Membership to vote
3. Only Full Members receive combat bonuses under Holy Wars

Things to test in this version. Test how they effect game play.

1. AP vote interval is 5 turns, down from 9
2. the difficulty or ease to pass the New Resolutions
3. all the New Resolutions
4. the Crusade Promotion and its effects on combat
5. spelling errors and typos
6. As the AP is not accessible till you research Theocracy you may want to start an Advanced Game or mod the Tech required to build it.

I. New Resolutions:

Spoiler :

Notes:
- items marked with a * are not implemented yet
- All the below resolutions can start when the AP is built. With this Mod only Full Members can Vote, that is you must have the AP religion as your state religion. The AI weights each Resolution before it votes yes or no or even Defy.

1. Declare Holy War

a. must have Protection Pack signed with all members, Force Civic Theocracy passed, and researched Writing. Promote World Peace can not be in effect.
b. Players can then receive the Crusade Promotion, see rules below
c. All members are forced into war with all none members
d. relations with none members are worse than if just at war
e. AI checks the Power of members vs. none members as well as other things
f. AI remembers you Declaring Holy War *
g. Effects removed when AP becomes obsolete

2. Sanction Holy War

a. must have Force Civic Theocracy passed, researched Writing, and Promote World Peace can not be passed
b. Members are not forced into war but if you declare a war on a none member you then can receive the Crusade Promotion
c. relations with none members is strained
d. AI checks the Power of members vs. none members as well as other things
e. AI remembers you Sanctioning Holy War *
f.Effects removed when AP becomes obsolete

3. Renounce Holy War

a. Must be at Holy War or Sanction Holy war
b. if passed relations are back to normal, but players will have to sue for peace with each Infidel they are at war with
c. AI checks Power levels and if winning the war they may reject

4. Promote World Peace

a. no Member can be at war
b. if passed Emissaries are sent out to strengthen relations, effects can be seen on Diplomacy screen
c. effects are based on Leader Traits
d. if a Member goes to war Emissaries are recalled
e. AIs that are planning to go to war will vote this down
f. Emissaries are recalled if AP becomes obsolete

5. Renounce World Peace

a. Emissaries are recalled and relations are back to normal

6. Force Theocracy Civic

a. attempt to unite all under Theocracy only Full Members are effected

7. Force Surrender of Holy City

a. Holy City must be in the hands of Infidels
b. The owner of the Holy City is asked to surrender the city to the current Resident of the AP with threat of being at War with all AP members
c. the AI will weigh his chances to survive an attack and make his choice
d. if he does not give over the Holy City peacefully .. all members Declare War
e. AI remembers these actions*

II. Effects on Combat

Spoiler :

Agent327 · Apr 20, 2008

Sounds like a cool addition! :thumbsup:

When fully tested I'll get back to you on this!

surdanis · Apr 21, 2008

looks good, kailric. will test and post results soon.

did you already make the emissary unit? always wanted to have one of those. if you didn't make one already, i can tackle that next.

and one last thiing: is there a way you can make it so that any unit that gains the Crusader promotion is tagged temporarily (for as long as they have it the promotion) as "SPECIALUNIT_CRUSADE"? that way any unit with the promotion can load into my Crusader unit, which has 6 moves and capacity 24. of course, if the promotion gives double movement or something like that already, that's ok. we'll just figure out another use for the unit (which took me forever to make!).

Kailric · Apr 21, 2008

surdanis said:
looks good, kailric. will test and post results soon.

did you already make the emissary unit? always wanted to have one of those. if you didn't make one already, i can tackle that next.

and one last thiing: is there a way you can make it so that any unit that gains the Crusader promotion is tagged temporarily (for as long as they have it the promotion) as "SPECIALUNIT_CRUSADE"? that way any unit with the promotion can load into my Crusader unit, which has 6 moves and capacity 24. of course, if the promotion gives double movement or something like that already, that's ok. we'll just figure out another use for the unit (which took me forever to make!).

The Crusader promotion does nothing really on its own. It uses a new trait called "specialrequirement". With that set to "1" or on, it tells the code that this promotion can't be obtained through normal means, like experience gained. And the combat code checks for units with the "specialrequirement" flag the adds bonuses accordingly.

I will have to find where the loading code is and see how it works. What you are trying to do is flag the Crusader unit to only carry units with the Crusader promotion right? I'll look into and see what I can do about that.

And no I didn't make any new units yet, like the Emissary unit you mentioned. They are just automatic for the moment and you can see + bonuses to attitudes when you look at diplomacy screen.

One thing that bugs me now is when you declare Holy War some members can have a negative modifier to their attitude against you because "you declared war on our friend" when in fact they declared war as well, so I'll have to look into fixing that.

keldath · Apr 21, 2008

hi,
great work,

can you please upload the sdk source code?

Kailric · Apr 21, 2008

surdanis said:
and one last thiing: is there a way you can make it so that any unit that gains the Crusader promotion is tagged temporarily (for as long as they have it the promotion) as "SPECIALUNIT_CRUSADE"? that way any unit with the promotion can load into my Crusader unit, which has 6 moves and capacity 24. of course, if the promotion gives double movement or something like that already, that's ok. we'll just figure out another use for the unit (which took me forever to make!).

Ok, I checked it out and it was pretty simple to add code for what you asked for above. Just unzipping this
Crusade Load patch for v0.1 alpha Holy Wars files into your Holy Wars mod should work. Then you need to edit the XML on your new units.

Crusade Unit change this like so in the below code, then the other units just turn off the Hidden Nationality. If hidden Nationaly it turned on for the Crusade unit, then only units that are hiddenNationaly can load, this is already in the default code.

Code:

<SpecialCargo>NONE</SpecialCargo>
<bHiddenNationality>0</bHiddenNationality>

@keldath
Danget.. I forgot you can't unpack .dlls. I am still new at this. Ok, I need to check up on how much you can upload to this server and how much I can up load to my own server if I can get it up loaded I'll do that no prob.

Edit: Ok, I don't have enough room on my personal server but I think I can upload for free at another site so I will attempt this latter on this evening and post a link in the first post for it.

jojoweb · Apr 21, 2008

good ideas !

surdanis · Apr 21, 2008

Crusade Unit change this like so in the below code, then the other units just turn off the Hidden Nationality. If hidden Nationaly it turned on for the Crusade unit, then only units that are hiddenNationaly can load, this is already in the default code.

what do you mean already in the default code? you mean any unit with the Crusade promotion is already "hidden nationality"? if so, that's great. i'll try what you said.

Kailric · Apr 21, 2008

surdanis said:
what do you mean already in the default code? you mean any unit with the Crusade promotion is already "hidden nationality"? if so, that's great. i'll try what you said.

No, in the default code if a unit has cargo and hidden nationality only units with hidden nationality can load into it. So unless you want to make all your units Hidden Nationality you will have to turn off that attribute in your Crusader mod pack.

EDIT: the patch I posted for surdanis had a messed up link but I fixed it and it can be found here.. Patch

surdanis · Apr 21, 2008

Kailric said:
No, in the default code if a unit has cargo and hidden nationality only units with hidden nationality can load into it. So unless you want to make all your units Hidden Nationality you will have to turn off that attribute in your Crusader mod pack.

EDIT: the patch I posted for surdanis had a messed up link but I fixed it and it can be found here.. Patch

ok, i get it. basically, you're saying only the units i made can load into the Crusade unit i made because of the way the game works. if that's the case, is there a way you can make the Crusader promo turn "HIDDEN NATIONALITY" to true and turn it off when you lose it? that way, they can keep hidden and it adds more interesting gameplay. crusaders tend to do bad things--especially when so far away from their homeland. studying some history, i learned that one of the reasons the Pope called for the crusades was to decrease violence among Christians: have them kill, rape, and pillage elsewhere like in the Holy Land. remember that many Crusades wound up with massacres against fellow Christians and Europeans as well, and the crusading armies pretty much functioned independently from the kingdoms they came from.

so if you can do that, i think we'll be good. but i understand your argument why not to have it. however, in light of the cool gameplay it offers, i think it's worth it.

and have fun on your week off!

btw, i ran through the mod a little, and would like to strongly suggest removing Theocracy as the forced civic and to replace it with Organized Religion, as that is more accurate. the crusading kingdoms were hardly theocratic. the only theocracies were the Papal States and the Byzantine Empire. the rest were just Christian kingdoms.

and forgive my ignorance, but i where exactly did you make the change in the patch? do i just replace the entire mod or what? i put the patch right inside the Holy Wars folder. hope that works...

UPDATE:

after playing around with your mod a bit, i discovered this:

correct me if i'm plain wrong, but that math doesn't quite add up. i mean, shouldn't i have won and passed the resolution to declare holy wars??? for whatever reason, i can't pass the resolution, even though i have overwhelming majority. could it be because i am already at war at the time of the passing of the resolution? if that's the case, please fix soon!

Agent327 · Apr 21, 2008

surdanis said:
btw, i ran through the mod a little, and would like to strongly suggest removing Theocracy as the forced civic and to replace it with Organized Religion, as that is more accurate. the crusading kingdoms were hardly theocratic. the only theocracies were the Papal States and the Byzantine Empire. the rest were just Christian kingdoms.

Can't say I agree: Theocracy only gives +Experience to units built, whereas Org. Rel. gives -Build Cost for buildings (unless that's changed). If you want to crusade the former is definitely more useful.

surdanis · Apr 22, 2008

of course, i can't agree more with it being more useful, Jeelen, and i would definitely use it to fight wars. but i'm asking for more historical accuracy/realism here, not convenience. if we just made the game convenient, we might as well throw out all the rules and just make it easier. perhaps the best solution would be to remove the force civic condition altogether, if that's possible. for now, though i suggest merely Organized Religion.

would also like to throw out a major suggestion:

it has been bugging me how hard it is to find the resolutions you have passed and when they were passed. is there a way to add dates to when the resolutions were passed under the fist icon in the top right of the main screen? it has all the resolutions listed but never a date, and i can never find out when the next vote will occur (play on Marathon speed).

Kailric · Apr 22, 2008

so if you can do that, i think we'll be good. but i understand your argument why not to have it. however, in light of the cool gameplay it offers, i think it's worth it.

I haven't gotten to test the effects of Hidden Nationality in CIV 4, but I know from past experience that giving the AI control over those types of units can be a total pain. Say you and 4 other Members of the AP declare Holy War on 4 other Infidels and the AP members begin cranking out Crusaders with Hidden Nationality.. if the AI isn't programmed on what to do with those units it will be total chaos with complete world war as the AI begin sending crusader units at any one, even their closest allys. So , its something that needs to be looked into thoroughly, and tested. Maybe In a mod that was more Historical it would work out best, where there is just say Christians vs Muslims.

Edit: but yeah, that can be done with the Crusader Promotions somehow.. if I get the chance I may add that for you in another patch

btw, i ran through the mod a little, and would like to strongly suggest removing Theocracy as the forced civic and to replace it with Organized Religion, as that is more accurate. the crusading kingdoms were hardly theocratic. the only theocracies were the Papal States and the Byzantine Empire. the rest were just Christian kingdoms.

Ahh, actually I got the two of them confused and ment to add Organized Religion and not Theocracy. You don't need to do any coding really to change that one over if you understand how the XML works but what I will probably do in my next update is add both Theocracy and Organized civics as they both seem to fit in with this theme. Like, Muslims would have been more Theocratic it seems as well as Jews. So in the next update you will have to force either Theocracy or Organized .. but not have to force both.

and forgive my ignorance, but i where exactly did you make the change in the patch? do i just replace the entire mod or what? i put the patch right inside the Holy Wars folder. hope that works...

There was only two files in that patch.. just replace the ones in the Holy Wars Mod with the ones in the patch and you are good to go.

after playing around with your mod a bit, i discovered this:
correct me if i'm plain wrong, but that math doesn't quite add up. i mean, shouldn't i have won and passed the resolution to declare holy wars???

What that is, is the normal Resolution voting rules. Some resolutions give you 4 choices. Yes, No, Defy, or Abstain. If a Member votes to Defy it works just like a Presidents Veto, and the Resolution will not, regardless of how many yes votes. But that member gets demoted to Voting Member until he votes Yes on a Resolution that passes. That will probably cause problems cause with this mod there is no Voting Member status and they don't get to Vote on any of the AP resolutions. Just look up how the AP works and it may make sense.

surdanis · Apr 22, 2008

ah ok, i get it. i thought defy was like NO, but i guess not. and i think you meant he gets demoted to non-voting member. and yes, i see your point. since there isn't non-voting member, there is an issue. could you simply make it so defy isn't available for the AP since it's clearly supposed to be less democratic than the UN?

as for the whole hidden nationality thing, i understand where you're coming from, and after thinking it over, i can deal with what you had. i just need to fix my units to fit the mod.

thanks for the info on the patch. guess i need to find the files i need to replace.

Kailric · Apr 22, 2008

surdanis said:
ah ok, i get it. i thought defy was like NO, but i guess not. and i think you meant he gets demoted to non-voting member. and yes, i see your point. since there isn't non-voting member, there is an issue. could you simply make it so defy isn't available for the AP since it's clearly supposed to be less democratic than the UN?

as for the whole hidden nationality thing, i understand where you're coming from, and after thinking it over, i can deal with what you had. i just need to fix my units to fit the mod.

thanks for the info on the patch. guess i need to find the files i need to replace.

Yeah, I was considering removing Defy, and it may work best... maybe depending on what Civic you Force? Which Religion Civic would be more Democratic.. Theocracy or Organized, heck may as well through in Pacifism for players who want to be peaceful. But I know the other two, Paganism and Free Religion don't fit into a Holy War theme.

But actually there are 3 kinds of membership. Full Member.. you can vote on anything and are immune to the bad votes. Voting Member, you don't get to vote as much, people can vote to declare war on you, or embargo you and such, and then None Member where you dont get to vote at all. When a Full Member Defys, he gets demoted to Voting Member. And just so you know if you Declare Holy War, Voting Members will be an Enemy as well.. so you have to pay attention to member status before you declare Holy War as you may declare war on your friend.

But we can work in a HiddenNationality effect somehow. Like maybe with a Resolution or some other way, but it would need to have checks and balances so it want be abused.

surdanis · Apr 22, 2008

Kailric said:
Yeah, I was considering removing Defy, and it may work best... maybe depending on what Civic you Force? Which Religion Civic would be more Democratic.. Theocracy or Organized, heck may as well through in Pacifism for players who want to be peaceful. But I know the other two, Paganism and Free Religion don't fit into a Holy War theme.

But actually there are 3 kinds of membership. Full Member.. you can vote on anything and are immune to the bad votes. Voting Member, you don't get to vote as much, people can vote to declare war on you, or embargo you and such, and then None Member where you dont get to vote at all. When a Full Member Defys, he gets demoted to Voting Member. And just so you know if you Declare Holy War, Voting Members will be an Enemy as well.. so you have to pay attention to member status before you declare Holy War as you may declare war on your friend.

But we can work in a HiddenNationality effect somehow. Like maybe with a Resolution or some other way, but it would need to have checks and balances so it want be abused.

that's cool. i just sent u a pm, and i have already removed the hidden nationality thing. having tested the new patch, i am going to upload your alpha with my own beta (having combiend both our mods) on my thread. i encourage anyone paying attention to this thread to download it. i think you'll find our combined efforts are more than satisfying. click on the link in my sig.

btw, great work!

Agent327 · Apr 22, 2008

surdanis said:
of course, i can't agree more with it being more useful, Jeelen, and i would definitely use it to fight wars. but i'm asking for more historical accuracy/realism here, not convenience. if we just made the game convenient, we might as well throw out all the rules and just make it easier. perhaps the best solution would be to remove the force civic condition altogether, if that's possible.

Strange how convenience and historical realism may blend perfectly into Theocracy, though.

(Personally I prefer Org. Rel. as a Civic, and personally I don't like not being seriously, but that's not the issue here.) Perhaps I should've said Theocracy is more appropriate to Crusades.

I'd also like to object against removing the veto (Defy) from the voting process. Again, with one eye on historical realism, there weren't that many crusades* and it shouldn't be too easy to start one. (But perhaps this, again, is asking too much.)

* effective crusades, that is. (I'm well aware there were plenty attempts.)

surdanis · Apr 22, 2008

JEELEN said:
Strange how convenience and historical realism may blend perfectly into Theocracy, though. (Personally I prefer Org. Rel. as a Civic, and personally I don't like not being seriously, but that's not the issue here.) Perhaps I should've said Theocracy is more appropriate to Crusades.

I'd also like to object against removing the veto (Defy) from the voting process. Again, with one eye on historical realism, there weren't that many crusades* and it shouldn't be too easy to start one. (But perhaps this, again, is asking too much.)

* effective crusades, that is. (I'm well aware there were plenty attempts.)

crap, i was about to say there was like 9 LOL! not to mention quite a few unofficial ones.

Kailric · Apr 22, 2008

JEELEN said:
Strange how convenience and historical realism may blend perfectly into Theocracy, though. (Personally I prefer Org. Rel. as a Civic, and personally I don't like not being seriously, but that's not the issue here.) Perhaps I should've said Theocracy is more appropriate to Crusades.

I'd also like to object against removing the veto (Defy) from the voting process. Again, with one eye on historical realism, there weren't that many crusades* and it shouldn't be too easy to start one. (But perhaps this, again, is asking too much.)

* effective crusades, that is. (I'm well aware there were plenty attempts.)

When adding new rules you have to be careful not to over balance the overall game play in that one aspect of the game is far superior than any other and allows for an easy victory. Its like cheat codes... they have their place but if players have easy access to cheats it ruins the atmosphere of the game, turning the challenge that most of us enjoy into a menial experience.

That being said..from a game play perspective I don't want to make it "easy" to start full blown crusades, especially effective ones. The first crusade was actually the most successful while all others had menial success if any success at all. But Civ 4 is more about rewriting history rather than following it.

I am going to add Theocracy, Organized Religion, and Pacifism to the force civic votes which each haveing their own unique effect. The effects I haven't worked out just yet though so any suggestions will be appreciated. But for starters I will make it so that:

Pacifism will be a prereq for Promote World Peace

Having either Theocracy or Organized Religion will be a prereq for Holy Wars

Having only read the Civilopedia on these two civics, by definition there really isn't that much difference in the two. They both fit into a Crusades theme with Muslim types being more Theocratic and Pope types being more Organized Religion but both having the power to declare Holy Wars.

I am still looking into a Resolution that can remove the Defy vote option. Maybe something along the lines of being voted a "God-King" where your rule is absolute and you get to keep this "God-King" status as long as your side is winning the war.

This could lead to some interesting games depending on which side of the "God-King's" authority you are. If you are opposing, your goal would be to cause so much havoc that the AP members will Vote to remove the leader's "God-King" status and renounce the holy war.

Agent327 · Apr 22, 2008

Kailric said:
When adding new rules you have to be careful not to over balance the overall game play in that one aspect of the game is far superior than any other and allows for an easy victory. Its like cheat codes... they have their place but if players have easy access to cheats it ruins the atmosphere of the game, turning the challenge that most of us enjoy into a menial experience.

That being said..from a game play perspective I don't want to make it "easy" to start full blown crusades, especially effective ones. The first crusade was actually the most successful while all others had menial success if any success at all. But Civ 4 is more about rewriting history rather than following it.

Fair enough.

Kailric said:
I am going to add Theocracy, Organized Religion, and Pacifism to the force civic votes which each haveing their own unique effect. The effects I haven't worked out just yet though so any suggestions will be appreciated. But for starters I will make it so that:

Pacifism will be a prereq for Promote World Peace

Having either Theocracy or Organized Religion will be a prereq for Holy Wars

Having only read the Civilopedia on these two civics, by definition there really isn't that much difference in the two. They both fit into a Crusades theme with Muslim types being more Theocratic and Pope types being more Organized Religion but both having the power to declare Holy Wars.

I am still looking into a Resolution that can remove the Defy vote option. Maybe something along the lines of being voted a "God-King" where your rule is absolute and you get to keep this "God-King" status as long as your side is winning the war.

This could lead to some interesting games depending on which side of the "God-King's" authority you are. If you are opposing, your goal would be to cause so much havoc that the AP members will Vote to remove the leader's "God-King" status and renounce the holy war.

Cool. I'll just wait and see how it turns out.

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