Something Different (SSE/EE Immortal)

obsolete

Deity
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Dec 17, 2005
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SSE / EE

The Espionage Economy (Something Different)


Since no one needs to see PROOF’S of the SSE/WE anymore, I decided to try something different. Time for the Espionage Economy. In my recent games I’ve had an opportunity to explore this more, though it’s been used mostly as a hybrid.

However, I decided to try a 100% full forced EE from the start. Of course it can’t technically be 100% early because you MUST research to alphabet somehow in order to get that first Spy unit before you can get going, so that will be our starting point when science spending research drops to 0 on the slider and we won’t touch it ever again.

The EE has been mentioned a few times, but there hasn’t been much interest so far that I can see. I suspect this is primarily due to it requiring much more understanding/intuition than a cottage spamming spree. And I suppose an extremely heavy EE will only be used by a very small portion of players still in the future.

In any case, I tested the SSE/EE quite a few times on Deity level in the recent past. Unfortunately this strategy falls apart on that level, primarily because it is a system which actually is only geared to win second place. And as we know, winning second place is no win at all. And sadly, I seem to constantly only hit second place on Deity with it too.

Now lets be honest, ALL strategies break down on Deity. There simply is no winning method for that level, because the AI bonuses are so ridiculous that even God himself could never win more than half the time. But you would think I could have got LUCKY to catch a win here or there. But no, this EE turns out to be quite terrible there, more so than any other decent strategy that I know of.

However, for this game here, I decided to drop down to Immortal, and then play out through the end. Here it actually works pretty fine. There is enough lee-way that you can pin down who ever is in first place. Though I have to admit that all the Deity playing has really helped me to fix some of my poor miromanagement leaks, which also helped a little.

I will be gone for most of next week, but for now I’ll just include this preview shot for what is to come…

Spoiler :
preview.JPG
 
Full spy powered SE are quite strong... I've done one in a SG while ago ( PH 12 IIRC ) and even in pre democracy times it is not unusual to become the tech leader without even researchig a tech after alpha ;) ....

Espionage tech adquiring has a caractheristic that no other economy has: tech stealing costs go down with the increase of the total generated EP all over the game... this means that a EE will become increasingly efficient with the time.... This alone makes a huge diference.

P.S Start using tactical... they are cheaper and have abigger evasion prob :lol:
 
Something Different (SSE/EE)


Leader:: Ghandi
Speed:: Normal
Difficulty:: Immortal



Disclaimer:
This strategy emphasizes heavily on the fundamentals of SE. If you haven’t elevated your game to that level yet, then good luck to you.


intro.JPG


Some Past Walkthroughs indexed here::

Beyond the Sword

WarLords
 
4000 BC

Hmm, well a lot of boring flatland. At least I have pigs for a food resource, but it will prevent me from mining that hill. It doesn’t really matter though, since I’m not going to go after all sorts of wonders, as they will add POLLUTION to the spy pool. Of course, the Great Wall will be built for obvious reasons, but other than that, I will be doing a twist in this game by not building any wonders at all that don’t contribute spy points.

4000bc.JPG
 
3880 BC
Popped a scout.

Strange, I don’t even have the hunting tech, how is that possible?
-ni

3800 BC
Uh oh, we meet Augustus. Alright, time to re-start a new immortal map and start over again.

Just… kidding.
-ni

3760 BC
Religious fanatic Isabella meets us.
-ni

3640 BC
Culture-Whore Willem greets us. Looks like I’ll have to be on my toes now and watch out for his cultural victory.
-ni

2680 BC
Alright, our first, and possibly only wonder. The Great Wall is ready for completion, and it cost me quite a few of my precious trees as well. In any case, I have two workers for my double-chop out there, and hooked up the gold mine as well.

Note:
I’m actually researching AH now, despite I usually skip it, because I want to not just get that pigs up, but also get horses out so I can scout around quick and protect my settlers. I want to expand horizontally now for a change.

2680bc.JPG
 
1840 BC
Time to found our second city. This spot is close, and while there is a bit of over-lap, I don’t yet have that much protection outside of my cultural walls. It does have some good resources within the fat cross, so I’m happy with it’s position as it is.

1840bc.JPG
 
1680 BC
A Great Spy pops.
-ni

1440 BC
Now our 3’rd city is going up. We’re halfway there to our goal already.

Note: Horses are hooked up, and one is currently guarding that settler. I could have moved this city position down 1 tile to grab another food resource, but I was planning to settle another city down there and grab it that way.

Also, as soon as this alphabet is done in 10 turns, our science spending will drop to zero and we’ll focus everything including the kitchen sink on espionage.

1440bc.JPG
 
1080 BC
Catherine greets us. She has founded Jewdiasm, and for some reason, we already have a +1 relation for years of peace despite I haven’t even known her!

At this point, I have decided to join the budah religious sect when the time comes. That way I’ll be on the side of the majority which is close by.

Also, we trade writing to Augustus for fishing and hunting, not that we HAVE to.



Note:
We are focusing all points vs. Willem now. This will remain so until a better target becomes available that won’t be too risky.

1080bc.JPG



And now because we researched alphabet… this propels us into the Classical Age.

EoL
 
I will be doing a twist in this game by not building any wonders at all that don’t contribute spy points.
OK, who are you and what have to done with the REAL obsolete!

You can build Wonders in other cities you know! Wait, I know, you have this diabolical plan to find the cities with the Wonders in em and TAKE em! BRILLIANT!

Seriously though, I suck so bad at managing espionage I am going to be following this closely. Hmm, that reminds me, Cam_H had an RPC I wanted to try out where he had conditions that sort of forced an EE type system. Gotta dig that one up. Churchill I think.
 
OK, who are you and what have to done with the REAL obsolete!

You can build Wonders in other cities you know! Wait, I know, you have this diabolical plan to find the cities with the Wonders in em and TAKE em! BRILLIANT!

Seriously though, I suck so bad at managing espionage I am going to be following this closely. Hmm, that reminds me, Cam_H had an RPC I wanted to try out where he had conditions that sort of forced an EE type system. Gotta dig that one up. Churchill I think.

It was Churchill, but you certainly didn't HAVE to go the EE route...I won within his restrictions without making a single spy :p. It was my second monarch win ever, and is still #2 on my all time top score list. Yes, I got lucky.

Shame that EE can't work on deity by anyone's judgment so far, because I really like using it to catch up after overexpansion via war :(.
 
This game will be interesting although the start position is awesome like usual. I have little faith in the EE so I will pay attention to the tactics, don't forget to make detailed posts! ;)
 
3880 BC
Popped a scout.

Strange, I don’t even have the hunting tech, how is that possible?

Hut pops have never been tech dependent - the goodies that you get from huts translate directly from the listings in CIV4HandicapInfo.xml
 
Bad luck with nukes?


Yes, seems that terrible luck with nukes still continues. Yet, the guys in the other forum claim there is no code for INTERCEPT bonuses for AI on higher levels. I just find this to be not true; or so it seems. Constantly my volleys of up to 10 ICBMs all missed. I was so happy to get that 1 finally hit!

It can only be just a terrible running streak of bad luck, or a bug. And I wouldn’t doubt a bug, because I even had an AI who didn’t even have the space-defence built yet, nor the tech to build it, but even HE was able to have my ICBMs shot down! I even have a screen shot to prove it.



Espionage tech adquiring has a caractheristic that no other economy has: tech stealing costs go down with the increase of the total generated EP all over the game... this means that a EE will become increasingly efficient with the time.... This alone makes a huge diference.


That is debatable… The discount is limited to just over 30% at most, meanwhile you end up having to pay up to 50% more as soon as the AI gets democracy, which hurts. Also, if you are targeting the tech leader, you are most likely targeting someone who also can afford a lot of Espionage, which means your original discount isn’t so hot either. So…. It depends….


What did you do with the Great Spy? Settled?

I used him to light bulb fishing.

Just kidding…



OK, who are you and what have to done with the REAL obsolete!

Well, my sister has used my computer a few times, and yes she is a Sid Fan. But no, I’m the only one who logged into my Civ Fanatics account this week.



Shame that EE can't work on deity by anyone's judgment so far, because I really like using it to catch up after overexpansion via war

I had one Deity where I was leading along very well, and just two turns before finishing my SS-Engine for a launch, an AI on the BIGGER continent held a UN vote and I was doomed. I should have probably posted the game anyway, but I felt I could do better next time. Unfortunately, it does not seem to simple. Every time it seems SOMETHING goes wrong when you near the end game with this kind of strategy. But to be honest, I have had a LOT of bad deity luck. A lot was also due to spy bugs. I’m not just talking about the regular spy bugs that eject you from your opponents territories, there are spy bugs that refuse to let you do things like destroy buildings etc (I think if there is no obelisk. Or if they build the StoneHenge too). As you can see, there are more problems with this system than just the theory.
 
That is debatable… The discount is limited to just over 30% at most, meanwhile you end up having to pay up to 50% more as soon as the AI gets democracy, which hurts. Also, if you are targeting the tech leader, you are most likely targeting someone who also can afford a lot of Espionage, which means your original discount isn’t so hot either. So…. It depends….
You are overstaing the effect of Democracy. It is true that the AI gets a bonus in the cities where it builds a Security Bureau. But only in those cities and it often takes a long time for the AI to build it in all its cities, so until then Democracy has little effect beyond moving your most cost effective target city for espionage missions.


I used him to light bulb fishing.

Some of us know that GSpies can't be used as lightbulbs ;)
 
Madscientist did an espionage game (Chairman Mao), and he also put all of his points towards Willem for tech stealing. Should be an interesting game though - Espionage is fun! :espionage:
 
I still think tech stealing is best done through commerce and the slider, though I know that's not obsolete's way.

What I see a lot of EEs do is restrict trading or self-research. I don't understand why so many of them do that, except to think that they approach EE as a novelty.

Obsolete, did you achieve tech parity with any of the AIs in your deity attempts? If you did, when did it happen?
 
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