Hydrotileophobia - fear of water tiles

So! Water!
Does anyone else find themselves reluctant to build waterside cities?
In Vanilla, coast tiles could be quite decent as extra tiles to work (especially for financial), the seafood resources were incredible and the trade routes could be phenomenal. Plus it would generally be a loooong time before your cities could grow large enough to really need to use their water tiles. So seaside cities were good.
In FFH, coast tiles really pale in comparison to the massively improved farms and the faster-growing cottages. Even the seafood resources, which could power a whole GP-farm-city in vanilla, are barely better than a grassland farm.
So with the huge growth in FFH, a coastal city will quickly find its potential limited in comparison to an inland one. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does seem to discourage building coastally except as a last resort. The trade routes don't really make up for it (and themselves seem to have less impact than they did in Vanilla).

Anyway, please tell me if I'm totally wrong, but I do really feel as though water could do with a bit of improvement (other than just naval power, which is a whole different thread). Do people agree?
I don't know what I would suggest - something that would make coastal empires more viable without massively overpowering the Lanun. Anyway, here's a few scattered thoughts - hopefully others can suggest something more interesting.

I feel as though a raw upgrade to water tiles would probably be a mistake, although a tech-linked upgrade or building might work.

Alpha-Centauri-style sea terraforming would really just be extra micromanagement for very little gain, and it would feel a little odd as well, I think.

Increasing the yield from seafood resources would definitely be a good move, I think (and meat resources too, for that matter), because they're currently overshadowed by grain resources and even just regular farms. I'd love for them to be something worth fighting over.

Some sort of bonus based on number of water tiles in the radius (perhaps capped by city size) could be a possibility (maybe a customs-house-type building that adds 1 commerce for every water tile in the radius or something).

An OO-specific benefit for coastal cities would also be nice, since the religion's practical links to the seaside have really been watered down (sorry), and it's also a kinda weak religion now. Maybe something like Overlords temple gives +2 hammers in coastal cities. I stole this from another thread, but allowing Overlords priests with whale resources as well as incense seems like a really good move to me.

As a side note, I would also suggest removing the Lanun's +1 food for freshwater - it feels odd and kind of exploity to be building your best pirate coves inland to get the extra food. And really, their forte is seafaring out on the rough open waters, not farting around on placid little lakes.

I really like your suggestions for OO and Lanun. Maybe there could be some kind of mechanic for OO ocean tiles similar to FoL forest tiles where, over time they "upgrade" and provide +1 hammer or commerce or something. I would keep it just to ocean tiles though and definitely not freshwater lakes.

on default, water tiles should get another boost to trade routes, simply because at the technological level of FFH in our world, ships were the largest cargo carriers around (still are). And as dangerous as some sea lanes could be, it's still nothing to some of the land routes running through africa or asia.

Maybe coastal cities should get +1 trade routes.

and if you think of the role water elementals and golems could play in a harbor/coastal area adding a +hammer building requring OO and a mage's guild wouldn't be that far out of line I think.

and the trade routes could be phenomenal.

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Still true in FfH. Actually, even more so because:

- FfH Harbors are available much earlier than vanilla ones
- FfH still has the great lighthouse, plus a lack of good early wonders to compete with it (no great wall, oracle, pyramids, etc, instead we get trash like the pact of the nilhorn)

I agree with you that water tiles are even crappier to work, but the trade bonuses being even better is enough compensation, I think.

I don't see how OO is weak.

What exactly are the bonuses given to farms and cottages? I'm very curious to see how these have changed from Vanilla.

There is a civic called Agriculture, which is available with the Agriculture tech, which is still available right from the start. This civic causes farms to produce +1 food and -1 hammer. (the hammer penalty does nothing on grassland, flood plain and tundra)

Sanitation, FfH's version of Biology, is available much earlier than biology.

Cottages, hamlets and villages grow twice as fast as their vanilla versions.

Bad Player said:

Maybe coastal cities should get +1 trade routes.

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Or somehow tie hammers to trade routes, maybe in a 2:1 ratio. If your trade routes bring in 15 gold, you get 7 hammers in addition. Trade and capital do usually lead to industry and development, after all.

On a related topic, aquatic resources seem to be much rarer now. What's the deal?

Well, Oil Doesn't exist.
It might be that the resources aren't rarer, you just can't see some of them. Only the Lanun (well, an civ with the unresearchable seafaring tech that only they start out with) can see pearls. The Map Script still takes them into account though when deciding how to distribute resources on the map.

Foreign trade civic gives +1 extra trade route to coastal cities... I've had insane amounts of gold on huge maps from trade routes with the Lanun & Great Lighthouse.. Personally I think Lighthouse ought to be toned down a bit, perhaps just +1 trade route / city, or maybe +4 trade routes in the city that it is built in?

Disagree about the Great Lighthouse, it's a perfect wonder for an econ based civ. Expensive production wise, but great for economy.

In my opinion, the Lanun shouldn't be the only civ who can see pearls (these things aren't THAT hard to find). They already have a HUGE advantage with the sea, especially Hannah. I don't see why they alone should get pearls.

Al

Have to agree there, IMO the Lanun are powerful enough as it is, they don't need monopoly over pearls as well.

Lighthouses are a bit expensive.
If they were a bit cheaper it would be worth invest in it (coastal = low hammer city), and water tiles are often not better to work than land tiles, so i think it would be fair to reduce their costs.
But on the other side the costs are currently ok for Lanun, because a lighthouse gives them a great bonus.

A new building which gives +1 commerce per water tile or +1 hammer (see BTS), national or non-national, and not buildable by the lanun, could be interesting in the late-game.

i think it would be an a good thing to strengthen coastal citys production-wise. trade-to-hammer would be a possibility.

if you start coastal you have to detour to fishing, 1-2 techs you don't need normally. just to get access to tiles inferior to farms. seafood is nice but lacks the options of agriculture.

I don't see why they alone should get pearls.

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Maybe civilizations with OO should be able to see pearls too?

Not just OO, all civs. Pearls aren't exactly invisible lol

Al

Alzara said:

Not just OO, all civs. Pearls aren't exactly invisible lol

Al

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Now hold on here, Pearls are a unique and interesting mechanic that gives the Lanun a cool leg up in trading with other civs. Sure they aren't "invisible" but that's rationalizing away a good mechanic, for look and feel reasons. At best they could name them "DEEP" pearls to insinuate why only the Lanun can find and trade them.

The big issue with the Lanun, as I see it, is overall balance. They have a lot of power tied to the water but much less when tied to land. Most map types don't give the Lanun much opportunity for water access so the Lanun need to have lots of water power from the few water tiles they actually get access to (on most map types).