What's Next? Help on this Isolated Start...?

I am just getting comfortable on prince, BTS. I plugged in random everything with a fractal map and drew Bismark on this apparently isolated landmass. Very nice food/resource/floodplain rich first city start, but now I am not sure where to settle and what is next for grand strategy.

I intend to go and read the Isolated start AAR series and generally get a game plan. That's where you come in. What would you do? Dot maps welcome. I'm still kind of learning oriented so am not too spoiler-sensitive if you play a shadow game. I want to use the industrious trait, but stone and copper (for Colossus) both are far. I think that rules out many of the early wonders, or should I stretch out for stone? (No spiritual teching so far.)

One thing that seems logical is that I need to get cottaging for cash so I can out tech most. And Rex, though there are no obvious $ resources until calender. So do I settle one E of that corn near the fish for more cottage spamming? Not much of a specialist econo player at-all, but I don't think its suggested save for my food-exploding capital.
[Edit: does this last statement make any sense at all? Thanks for forbearing. I think I meant that...a great capital should not be just a GP farm...or something. But a GP source can be providing research/more GS eventaully with only settled scientists, as since I've learned from MC2, so even that line is weak. Oh well. Still yet to do the SE.]

Also, I took the herbal remedy gambit or what not, so I am already at +15 health. Techs so far:
Ag
Animal H
Mining (free)
Bronze
Fishing
Working wheel to get to potts and cottage.

Huts popped two warriors, animal H a few turns before I would have gotten it and some cash...

So...what do you think? Should I have taken another tack earlier? and more importantly...what's next for the big picture here?

That's a ridiculous isolated start. Is that a standard size map? Because that island is freaking huge for 1 player.

Yep, standard size, fractal, 7 players.

Some advices:

- Forget early wonders .... you have good land and settlers will be far more useful than wonders in here IMHO

-Check if you're really isolated.... it is still soon in the game and you may have a coastal bridge somewhere ( like in the SE )

-Try to not crash your economy while expanding and beware of barbs ( you need to do all the fog busting....

- Tech CoL and currency ASAP

You are industrious, are you not? I'd mostly follow rolo's advice, but do consider GLH and the mids (GLH is pretty easy to grab and can be ultra powerful with massed foreign trade), staying away from wonders after that. It's not like the land will get boxed in by someone else, so keep expanding but take your time to tech at a strong pace also. You're going to need it when you do meet the other AI's.

I usually get key economy techs then go optics to meet everyone/get the circumnavigation bonus. My best iso games involved taking astro off lib, though iirc you can bulb it too.

That start is completely sick. You didn't even mention that you got truffles on one of your grasslands in the capital. But the fact that it is coastal and only has one coastal tile that isn't a bonus is really amazing.

For me, if I'm coastal and have mining and have approximately a kajillon forests, I would have teched fishing - bronze working first while building warrior - work boat (whipped) - work boat - (also whipped) - worker. Because of the floodplains, you would grow nicely while teching there and probably would be working 2 improved clams within 4 turns of finishing Bronze Working. Depending on how fast you grew, you could work unimproved clams to slightly boost the research towards bronze working.

Questions to be answered from this point:

Are you really isolated? There is a sliver of land to your west that really gives no hint as to its size. If you get a work boat scouting around over there, you may find some pre-calendar happiness, or you may find neighbors. If you have neighbors that you can keep happy, then the Great Lighthouse might be nice because your trade routes with them will be 3 commerce each. It is still probably worthwhile to build it if you are truly isolated just because it will aid your rexing which is important on such a large continent. Otherwise you are going to have to have a pretty large standing army just for fogbusting. Combine that with HR garrisons and the upkeep there will start to get ugly too. If you build the GLH in isolation, get to astronomy as soon as possible. Thats when it will go from a nice little boost to your economy to a powerhouse.

Are there any other slivers of land within reach of a galley? Your interior is mostly scouted out but your coast is not scouted very thoroughly at all. Especially if you end up building the Great Lighthouse, it is important that you have the full coast scouted. Plus you could very easily have local islands.

How are you going to get access to Hereditary Rule which is essentially a must have with this capital? You have 13 great tiles to work and no concerns about health whatsoever. Possibilities are just tech to Monarchy, Oracle monarchy or build the pyramids.

You also need to be angling towards early bureaucracy with this capital as it is a production powerhouse. This would be one point in favor of getting HR from the Pyramids since you could detour shortly to masonry then beeline up the top path to CS (writing - math - currency - CoL - CS). Don't bypass pottery on the way as the trait cheapened granaries will help you grow your HR powered cities as well as boost your whipping. This path would also probably net you a religion which would lower the burden of happiness garrisons.

I would forget about hooking up stone early. You will pay way too much of a premium in maintenance to hook it up. And it will literally be forever before it is hooked up even if you have sailing as it is so far away and not in a position where you could settle on it to insta-claim it. Copper really isn't that far, but if you hook it up, you forgo the ability to build warriors as cheap HR garrisons.

r_rolo1 said:

- Forget early wonders .... you have good land and settlers will be far more useful than wonders in here IMHO

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Though you really can do both with slavery, cheap granaries and so many forests. Only trick is dealing with happiness.

-Try to not crash your economy while expanding and beware of barbs ( you need to do all the fog busting....

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There is the rub. Fog busting is going to be expensive as the continent is pretty big. But building a bunch of cities to handle the fog busting for you will be more expensive. An early wonder like Pyramids (allows vertical growth which will help) or the Great Lighthouse (helps pay for the horizontal expansion directly) will make it so the settlers you spam aren't killing you

- Tech CoL and currency ASAP

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Agreed for the most part but do currency first (i.e. don't go the priesthood path to CoL). Don't be afraid to build wealth to keep you running in the early going.

Isn't building wealth (and science) an extremely inefficient use of hammers, something more for emergencies rather than something to plan for? (Not insisting that it is, but I am curious as that has always been my impression -- but then, as a rather new Civ IV player, I am still quite tainted by Civ III.)

Bostock

^^Most of the times it is, but Vale was refering to use it as a temporary measure until the new cities start to be profitable.

Fidardorist said:

One thing that seems logical is that I need to get cottaging for cash so I can out tech most. And Rex, though there are no obvious $ resources until calender. So do I settle one E of that corn near the fish for more cottage spamming? Not much of a specialist econo player at-all, but I don't think its suggested save for my food-exploding capital.

Click to expand...

Expansion supported by cottages is a fine strategy. 100 turns after you finish expanding, you will have a large empire and plenty of towns.

You have enough land to win a space race victory without ever contacting another civ.

Hint: settle food resource clusters first.

According to the map there are three areas that may have possible sea routes to other land. Fog bust and science/worker up and it might be wise to get Aesthetics asap since you have an attack free city to build any wonder you want.
I suggest settling your second city in the center north of the sheep and wheat in preparation to serve as a new capitol. The isolation article was thorough and well thought out. But Bismark is specific - workers, science ,and reachable wonder of your choice.

Capital looks like an awesome gp farm with all that seafood and sheep and floodplains. I'll try this out when I'm done with my current game.

I see a TON of food, so I would lean toward the Mids, expansion focusing on the food, and liberal use of the whip to get that important infrastructure up FAST.

You do have a pretty nasty Happiness problem though, so perhaps you skip the Mids, go for the GLH, settle in a circle around your coast, again focusing on multiple food cities, and use inner-trade to try to support it. Tricky to play though. You REALLY need a Work Boat circling around, seeing if you have any galley-range neighbors, if you do, I STRONGLY suggest the "GLH to support REX" path. Get cottages down ASAP, work em as much as possible but use the whip to get building up fast (especially granaries and harbors, both doubled by the EXP trait, so worth whipping).

Post the 4000 BC save, I would love to see what I can get done with a start like this, even if it is Prince. My Wonder Addiction is kicking in strong here, LOL, I bet I could get a sweet Obsolete-style SSE working, and still expand around the coast to fogbust and supply cash.

BalbanesBeoulve said:

That's a ridiculous isolated start. Is that a standard size map? Because that island is freaking huge for 1 player.

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I have seen Fractals like this, its likely he has close neighbors he hasnt discovered.

The site one west of the southeast sugars would make a great moai statues city.
Maybe the capital can be centralized by a move next to the river in the middle of your island for cottage spamming and reduced distance upkeep.
Good luck!

Barbs will be a serious issue, so it's absolutely clutch that you have horses in the BFC. Get those connected ASAP so you can protect your rapidly expanding, and vulnerable, frontier, with chariots.

I'd be tempted to settle the inland site 1 N of the sheep, with peaks to the NW and SE, as your second city. Those are 3 grassland hills to the west and 2 plains hills to the east, right? That can be your production center for chariots while Berlin pumps out workers and settlers for your land-grab.

Someone explain to my why currency is worthwhile in isolated starts again?

Pyramids: stone is far away, and no trading partners means lightbulbing is poor. I'd say cottaging is the way to go.

Whipping: you're not rushing for city spots.

If you ever get feudalism, maybe you could try this new fangled running serfdom idea.

vicawoo said:

Someone explain to my why currency is worthwhile in isolated starts again?

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+1 trade routes per city, opens up Markets, which are pretty strong with a few cottages. There was discussion in a thread a while back about building Markets before bothering with Courthouses in certain situations, and I think lots of hamlet/village sized cottages in a city is a good place to do exactly that.

Besides, I highly doubt he is totally isolated. He may be, but I am guessing that once some coastal cities go down and start popping borders into the ocean, he will meet other AIs. Even if thats not the case, with the GLH and nothing but internal trade routes, Currency is worth at least +1 gold a turn per/city, at LEAST. Add a market or 2 in cities with some more mature cottages, and it can turn your economy around.

Lately in the LHC series, I have been going for the GLH, despite the limited trade route access with other AIs, because it helps to REX out cities a lot. The GLH generates a GM, and I bulb Currency with him 90% of the time, and instantly go from -12 gpt at 50% to +2 gpt at 70%.

vicawoo said:

Someone explain to my why currency is worthwhile in isolated starts again?

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Building wealth.

The added passive commerce from trade routes is nice, but the main boost is being able to convert hammers to gold to maintain a decent research rate. Sure, you can convert food to gold with caste system merchants, but by doing so you lose the ability to whip infrastructure in new cities.

vicawoo said:

Someone explain to my why currency is worthwhile in isolated starts again?

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Building wealth as indicated to keep afloat. Also the extra trade route, while it will be a +1 trade route which is nothing to be jumping through hoops over is a boost. It is on the path to CoL and thus CS if you don't go through the religious techs which with no marble at all, seems like the way to go.

Pyramids: stone is far away, and no trading partners means lightbulbing is poor. I'd say cottaging is the way to go.

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Who said he would run representation off the Pyramids? And with all those forests, you don't need to (and shouldn't even try to) hook up stone. Clearly he needs to get HR running early. The problem with teching Monarchy or Oracling Monarchy is that you have to sink a lot of beakers into a path that in my opinion is off the target which is Bureaucracy for this amazing capital. Unfortunately, if you get Bureaucracy without Hereditary Rule it is essentially wasted.

And yes, in isolation lightbulbing isn't spectacular. That doesn't matter though because he could just as easily settle the specialists he gets to boost his capital even more.

Whipping: you're not rushing for city spots.

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Yes, but do you want to make more hammers over time or less hammers over time? You have trait cheapened granaries here. So the outlay to get a city whip ready is a 1 population whip.

And you are rushing for city spots in a way if only for their fogbusting value which is pretty huge on this ginormous continent.

Bleys said:

I see a TON of food, so I would lean toward the Mids, expansion focusing on the food, and liberal use of the whip to get that important infrastructure up FAST.
...
Post the 4000 BC save, I would love to see what I can get done with a start like this, even if it is Prince. My Wonder Addiction is kicking in strong here, LOL, I bet I could get a sweet Obsolete-style SSE working, and still expand around the coast to fogbust and supply cash.

Click to expand...

Attached is 4000 BC start. Bleys: what lvl do you normally play and what are mids (mid tech tree paths)?

I really appreciate all the responses. Very cool.

My plan is to try to follow the consensus which clearly seems to indicate rex, cottage, COL and currency and GLH.

The first questions are regarding build\timing. Egs: 1) when\where to build the GLH. The obvious is the capitol, but then isn't he supposed to be settler\worker spamming and isn't he going to be real, real unhappy by the time it's built? 2) Also, I believe I can only catch sheep settling in the middle and am curious\suspicious of a palace move there. What does ex-palace become, a gp farm? Seems too all-around-excellent to relegate to that. Then again, if it loads up on wonders it could do double duty as GP source\$ & beaker\wonder grower until another food rich candidate takes the job away. But for hammers\gold, it seems like a good palace site (though the location is clearly not ideal.)

In any case I intend to do a comprehensive but succinct recap-post tonight. Then perhaps roll into a bit of a DAR if you'll tolerate vestiges of noobism in this newish arrival to the boards.