Jungle chop should give hammers

[Magma_Dragoon]

Not as much as forest, but it should give some. 10 with mathematics perhaps? Mahogany(sp?) is a tropical tree and very hard.

[Levgre]

I think it is harder to harvest lumber from rainforests than from other forests, just because the land and species are less uniform, more water and rain, and so on.

So when they are chopping the jungles the workers would actually be carrying out a slash and burn technique rather than just cutting down the trees.

Is there historical examples where people harvested jungles for wood on a largely productive scale?


Do people ever build lumber mills in rainforests?

[Infantry#14]

i'm sure about this, but how about the amazon rainforest jungles today?

[Magma_Dragoon]

Illegal lumber poaching is big business in Brazil.

[Balderstrom]

From "The Neotropical Companion" by John Kricher:

When a rainforest is disturbed, such as by hurricane, lightning strikes or human activity,the disturbed area is opened, permitting the penetration of large amounts of light.

Fast growing plant species intolerant of shade are temporarily favored
and a tangle of thin-boled trees, shrubs and vines result.

Like a huge, dense pile carpet, a mass of greenery, or "jungle",
soon covers the gap created by the disturbance.

The Amazon is a huge swath of land, containing both RainForest and Jungle.
Thusly "chopping" a jungle does not provide 'wood' or .

[Scilly_guy]

Hmm, I would say that there is a precedent in the real world for jungle to provide lumber (hammers) as Magma Dragoon states, illegal logging in Brazil is big business, and in Indonesia also. Although the main reason the Amazon and the Indonesian rain forests are cleared is to make way for agriculture, I would like to see a bigger deal made of rain forests in game.

[Balderstrom]

Again, that is a rain forest not a Jungle. When a Rain Forest is cleared, a Jungle will grow in its place, when in humid rainy climates like South America and central Africa and the like.

Also when the vegetation/Forest is cleared, it ruins the soil. As only the very top most layer is quality soil, making it less likely the area will be able to support forest in the future.

So yes, in the real world, the rain forests do provide lumber. The tropical jungles do not.

[cheesemoose]

Well, think about what rain forest and jungles are used for. Rain Forests would make food when chopped, but jungle would make about 15-25 shields.

[Magma_Dragoon]

I feel jungles are really really crappy like the xenofungus in SMAC, only jungles never become useful.

[Balderstrom]

Jungles are really really crappy in Real Life too.

What people seem to fail to understand, Jungles in CIV are Jungles.
Not Amazonian Rain Forests or Amazon Lushlands.
They are:

Fast growing plant species intolerant of shade, a tangle of thin-boled trees, shrubs and vines. Akin to a huge, dense pile carpet, a mass of greenery, or .... "jungle".

There is a very clear misconception that people have about what a jungle is. The see movies or Documentaries that blur the lines between Jungle/Forest. Civ doesn't blur the line and actually reflects how it is. There is no significant amount of Trees to chop in a Jungle.

How about +2 Hammers for the shrubbery ;-)

[deanej]

It would also be unbalancing, as aside from the global warming reduction, there is no advantage to keeping jungles, unlike forests.

[Magma_Dragoon]

It should give something. Food would be acceptable.

[Balderstrom]

It does give something, + :-)

[Clam Spammer]

Originally Posted by Magma_Dragoon

It should give something. Food would be acceptable.

Funny you should say that. They do give food, but as an increase in tile yield rather than a lump sum. The presence of a jungle gives -1 on the tile. So...

Chopping a jungle gives you:
- +1 on the tile
- -0.25 in cities with the tile in their BFC
- the ability to improve the tile.

Chopping a forest gives you:
- -1 on the tile
- -0.5 in cities with the tile in their BFC
- the ability to improve the tile without being restricted to lumbermills/preserves (which come very late and are generally no better than alternative tile improvements).

Obviously, the long-term effects of chopping jungles are much better than those for chopping forests. In terms of balance (remember, some civs will have access to jungle while others won't) it makes sense that forest chops should give a one-time bonus while jungles don't.

[Kiwi Tyrant]

If you persevere and leave the jungles intact, a later tech should give you the knowledge to tap into these 'useless' tiles and unlock bonuses for extracting the medicines etc. that we are discovering in them today.

They could dish out good and for example, to make it pay off in the long run for not clearing the jungle tile. Jungle tiles should be included in the bonus if a National Park is built too.

Gives more options to think of with raw tiles; not just clear for instant gain!
Why was'nt 'swamp' included as a tile? Swamp, like jungle, could be utilised later when knowledge allows, to extract locked bonuses.

[Balderstrom]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Tyrant

If you persevere and leave the jungles intact, a later tech should give you the knowledge to tap into these 'useless' tiles and unlock bonuses for extracting the medicines etc. that we are discovering in them today.

I will stop trying to enlighten anyone. And I'll join the rest.

Jungles are so freakin' awesome, they are the best, how come they suck so much in Civ, its just not right. We get so much from the weeds that grow there!

[Kiwi Tyrant]

O.K. maybe we have to accept that some tiles in the world are just inferior and don't give stuff all. Like mountains, tundra, ice and desert; what you can extract out of them is so tiny it's not worth mentioning. In the overall scale of civ, they obviously produce nothing worth building into the mechanics of the game.
I'm just a sucker for pure, insane depth in a game. I have encountered everything there is to experience in the Civ series, I am no longer shocked or surprised, I demand more, more, more.......

[Magma_Dragoon]

I guess chopping jungle will always be just another chore, so I'll end this with something silly.

There should be ents in the jungle. Roaming gangs of trees, setting fire to juvenile delinquents.