We don't need no stinkin' markets

I have been a builder player from my first game of Civ 1 and that meant that I built every improvement in every city... without thinking. I have gotten better and I don't build everything any more but the problem is now the opposite:

I tend not to build anything at all. The problem is that I don't really understand the use of the multiplier buildings generally. I read Aabraxans great article but it is a little too much on the tech side for me. What I would like is just a plain statement of fact about markets and banks'.

When do I build a market and do I always add a bank if I built the market?

When do I NEED to build a market?

I don't build granaries until my city proves that it is going to grow. (say size 7-8) Is there a time when you really need to build that granary even if the city is not going to be a long term growth city? (assuming you have the technology )

When would it be good to build a library/university? Many people seem to object to these as well.

I love my culture buildings so I won't ask about temples/cathedrals at all, at all.

I build markets mainly for the happiness effect.

But when and where? How far can a city get from the capitol and still 'deserve' a market?

I have a game with outlying cities that are getting quite a good size but they are fully corrupt... should they get a market to quell the unrest?

I like at least one culture building in all my cities plus a market especially with smiths trading, if you have at 5 luxuries hooked up the market mutiplier really starts to kink in giving 9, 6 gives 12, 7 - 16, 8 luxuries hooked up 20 great for large empire happiness management as slider has little effect on corrupt cities

In a long game (i.e. milking) even corrupt towns eventually get cash-rushed markets. Before then, they just have enough specialists to stop disorder.
Core towns and semi-core towns will build markets so they can grow big enough to have a decent working population, they start to build them as the settler and worker production moves to outer cities. I don't usually calculate how much commerce I will gain from building a market.

I cant remember the last time I built a bank. If I take over a town with it and stock exchange, I sell them immediately.

Darski,

Do you put your slider mostly towards gold, or towards science. If you are 90% science, then you have no need for banks. Keep marketplaces just to help with your luxury bonuses. Conversely, if you always just BUY your techs from other civs and dont research, do not build any lib/univ and build as many income multipliers as you can in effective cities. All comes down to what you are doing.

Outlying cities should have nothing, except maybe a a culture building to expand your borders.

I had a great, but (unsurprisingly) long-winded response to this. Then I went back and re-read the OP. A "a plain statement of fact about markets and banks'," eh?

Markets and banks cost 100 shields and 160 shields, respectively. Each one increases tax revenue by 50% and each one costs 1 gpt upkeep.

In the core and even in many large, semi-core cities, a market's worth the cost even if all you're getting is happiness. Generally, I put markets in every core city.

Do you always add a bank? No. If I'm going to run high-research, low-taxes (selling techs), libraries will be of more benefit. If I'm going to run low-research, high-taxes (buying techs), banks will be of more benefit than libraries (excepting the culture aspect).

As for your outlying cities, I guess it depends on what you're trying to do with them. If they're so far out that they're specialist farms, they probably don't need a market. If not, take a look at how much uncorrupted commerce they're making.

I've never done a milk run, so my advice may well be worthless in that context.

darski said:

I don't build granaries until my city proves that it is going to grow. (say size 7-8) Is there a time when you really need to build that granary even if the city is not going to be a long term growth city? (assuming you have the technology )

Click to expand...

Granaries should be built in relatively high shield cities that you will be producing settlers/workers from. Everywhere else it is more efficient to grow by adding workers from your few towns that already have granaries.

Culture buildings, Usually go on the outside of my border.

Science, Markets, Banks, And scientific buildings go into core cities only. Although I only have like 3 core cities, But if Im playing on a huge map, the number of core cities is much more. (Since 3 is probably on a tiny map for me..)

First off... I have to scream at this...

"If you are 90% science, then you have no need for banks." SCREAM! O.K. done... I'll come back to it.

Since you mostly play at levels below Emperor from what I undersatnd Darski, some of what you ask needs changed for Warlord vs. Regent or Monarch vs. Emperor, I would think... since unhappiness of citizens varies. Some of what you ask will depend on playing style and desired victory condition. I play as a builder... so I know less on how to advise warmongers as to when and how to build these improvements. First, the easy stuff...

Granaries-I think Chamnix has a good idea about building granaries and adding workers from those towns. No doubt he can do it well. But, it doesn't work all too well if you want to build say the Sistine Chapel or if want to build many wonders in general for that matter (you might want prebuilds... so you don't want the city to sit at size 5/6 for many turns... or have lower shield output than it could at size 11), or to maximize the potential commerce of a medieval city as soon as possible. His idea also doesn't seem suited for a 5 city game in my opinion (to speak clearly... I think the idea GREAT in certain places).

So, if you don't use his idea much or use it sparingly... it really doesn't matter what level you play at... as soon as you have minimal defense and a basic workforce I'd say to build a granary. Maybe a little later than that... but sooner works better than later, since the granary gives you more benefit if the city grows through more numbers with the granary. In other words building the granary at size 3 gives you more benefit in terms of growth than building it at size 5 or 6.

Sure, you pay extra upkeep... but when you cut your growth time *almost* in half it seems worth it, since you make some to all of that commerce back by faster growth. The one exception comes with a city at size 6. I wouldn't recommend building a granary at size 6 since it empties when it grows to size 7 (some exceptions DO exist... say if your size 6 cities builds workers or settlers *at size 6*). Better to wait until the city grows to size 7 and then build a granary before it grows to size 8. You'll, of course, have to watch happiness more closely with faster growth... but hopefully something like MapStat or CivAssist 2 can help you with this.

If you want an oversimplified simple, general rule, build granaries ASAP.

Marketplaces-When to build them gets a little complicated with their double tax and happiness effects.

1. Happiness effects-If you have all the luxuries traded for and hooked up you won't need them in your core towns unless they become metros for happiness benefits. You might want them in outer, more corrupt cities to get happiness effects to create a "we love the leader day effect" to reduce corruption in those towns. Of course, it comes as harder to build them in those towns... so here forrestry skills might help. You chop those towns towards marketplaces, which then can build other improvements faster due to reduced corruption. For any metro (size 13+), in my opinion, you'll want a marketplace hands down for its happiness effects (if you have at least two luxuries).

2. Tax effects-I'll assume the decision to build a marketplace usually comes before Smith's Trading Company... or without it. Check the number of commerce units going to taxes TU (for tax unit)... or estimate how much you'll have in a few turns if you anticipate switching your tax rate or city growth. Is TU>3? Then... if you don't have to worry about building many units... *build the marketplace*. Alright, maybe you'll want the library first... maybe not though. Either will, if TU>3 a marketplace will make your empire money. If TU=3 or TU=2 it won't make your empire money... so don't build it. If TU=1 or 0, the marketplace actually costs your empire money... so unless you need it for happiness effects forget it.

Banks seem much simpler... well... almost. First off, I strongly recommend building universities before banks. Trade around tech for gpt and make money that way... well at least at higher levels... I supose that might not work so well at Warlord. As I understand it, you don't need to consider happiness effects with a bank. Again, go and look at your tax units in the city. I assume again that you don't have Smith's. Now, if TU=6 of TU>6, you'll make money on the bank. If TU<6... why did you build a marketplace? Oh... happiness effects, I suppose. If you build a marketplace for happiness AND TU=6 or TU>6 you may as well build a bank at some point. Maybe you'll want a factory or hospital or even a courthouse first though. There does exist one exception to this rule.

Unless you play a game with less than 5 cities.. ALWAYS build a bank (after or shortly after a university) and a marketplace in at least 5 cities and BUILD 5 stock exchanges asap... at least as a general rule. You'd almost surely want do this in your core towns and make money off both the stock exchanges and Wall Street. Even with 90% or 100% science if you have a decent treasury stashed up Wall Street should make you money over paying the upkept costs for 5 marketplaces, banks, and stock exchanges (which... without Smith's... comes out as 25 gold per turn... so you need a treasury of 520 (5% of 520=26 gold) to make a profit on upkeep).

Stock exchanges cost 3 in upkeep. So, you need a base rate of 12 TU to make a profit. In effect this means you have 12+6+6=24 TU in the city display screen when it has a marketplace and a bank. So, if you have max or 90% science, more than 5 stock exchanges probably won't due you much good.

For warmongering things get more complex, since those leaders need some infrastructure and many units. It seems better to avoid commercial improvements completely as a general rule until you know what you really want to do and understand the game quite well. With Smith's I'd say it always works out well to build a marketplace if not a bank also... and stock exchanges for cities where it doesn't take far too many turns to build them.

Libraries-If you build the Great Library and set your research down low, don't build libraries until at or slightly before theology... this way your libraries come around the time when you'll need to start to research again. If you don't build them and want to research ancient and medieval techs, I'd build libraries in your core towns asap and in outer towns soon thereafter. You do have to pay upkeep on them... but you only need two beakers for library to have a multiplier effect. 1 gold upkeep into one beaker sounds like a decent trade off to me. 1 gold into two beakers (for 4 or 5 beakers as the base) 1 gold into three beakers sounds (for 6 beakers as the base) like a no-brainer to me.

Universities-I'd say to build these ASAP... with one exception. If you can get Copernicus's Observatory *always* build it first before finishing a university (you could use a university as a prebuild on Copernicus's Observatory in your capital). It does become harder to get on harder levels.. esepcially if you have a wonder cascade going on... but I'd still try for it (here building Sun Tzu's and/or Leo's and/or the Sistine Chapel can help as it kills the wonder cascade). Still, I'd try for a while... you might lose some shields if you have to switch to something else... but if you trade for/research Music Theory you might not lose any. Other than that I'd build universities in at least your core towns ASAP. Speeding through the high middle ages might yield you J.S. Bach's Cathedral, Smith's Trading Company, and Newton's University... all nice wonders... and getting to railroads, factories, and hospitals faster seems nothing to sneeze at either. Also, once the AIs build banks (gifting them banking might work out well), they get richer... so you can get more gpt for techonology. For a warmongering game... getting to Military Tradition faster also seems nothing to sneeze at. So, other than Copernicus's Observatory, I'd build universities in your core towns ASAP and in your outer towns once they can reasonably do so.

To try and give you a "plain statement of fact" about markets and banks for a warmongering game... don't build them. Extort money and don't worry all too much about getting first to a tech all too often... so lower your research rate and make more money (alright... I guess they can come out useful for cash-rushing units). For a builder game... if you make at least 4 tax units or TU in your city build a marketplace and a bank ASAP. Otherwise don't (yes... unhappiness concerns... but you wanted a "plain statement of fact").

Doug.Lefelhocz said:

Granaries-I think Chamnix has a good idea about building granaries and adding workers from those towns. No doubt he can do it well. But, it doesn't work all too well if you want to build say the Sistine Chapel or if want to build many wonders in general for that matter (you might want prebuilds... so you don't want the city to sit at size 5/6 for many turns... or have lower shield output than it could at size 11), or to maximize the potential commerce of a medieval city as soon as possible. His idea also doesn't seem suited for a 5 city game in my opinion (to speak clearly... I think the idea GREAT in certain places).

Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words, but I think the idea works almost always. I don't often play 5 city games, but the concept is still the same: to grow above size 7 costs 40 food per citizen, or 200 food total to grow from 7 to 12. If you build a granary, then the cost is 100 food plus 60 shields plus 1 gpt for each of your cities.

Suppose you have 5 cities - your total cost of growing all of them from size 7 to 12 is 1000 food with no granary, or 500 food and 300 shields with granaries everywhere.

Alternatively, suppose you build a granary in 1 city, make it a dedicated worker factory and add workers everywhere to grow from size 7 to 12. You need a total of 25 workers (5 for each city including the one building the workers initially). Each worker from a town (no larger than size 6) with a granary only costs 10 shields and 10 food. Your total cost for 25 workers is 250 food plus 310 shields (250 for the workers and 60 for the granary).

Even if you want a wonder - it is faster to grow 1 town to size 12 by adding 5 workers than it is to grow 5 citizens even with a granary.

Regarding the rest of your analysis, you are right that a market or bank or university will generally provide positive income, but I would add 2 things: first, I would consider the cost of the building as well. We need to use the same units to compare, so I use the conversion that 1 shield = 4 gold (the cost of rushing). Building a bank (for example) costs 160 shields = 640 gold. If your TU is only 6, then you have a "profit" of 1 gpt, but it takes 640 turns for you to earn back the initial cost of building the bank. I consider how long I expect the game to continue after the structure is completed when deciding whether it will really turn a profit before the game ends.

Secondly, even when a structure will turn a profit, I try to determine if it will turn the greatest profit of anything I can build there. For example, in a city where I am considering a bank for 160 shields, and the bank will provide me an extra 5 gpt, I could instead build 4 MDI. If those 4 MDI can capture a town for me, and I turn it into a specialist farm, perhaps the town can provide 3 specialists - either 6 gpt from taxmen or 9 bpt from scientists. Even though the bank increases your income some, you are clearly better off building MDI.

It is tough to figure out how many MDI will get you 1 city in general because the war may end up costing you much more in total, and it gets complicated further by the unit support costs, but I find that military will provide a greater return on investment than additional buildings a large proportion of the time.

You did mention that in your last paragraph when you say warmongers shouldn't bother with these buildings, but I believe that any game can be won more efficiently by doing at least some warmongering. If you are playing a game where you restrict yourself from attacking or just prefer a peaceful style, then by all means, build to your heart's content, but if you want to reach a victory condition as early as possible (regardless of what victory condition you want to reach), only build structures if the expected gain is greater than the expected gain from your neighbor .

I guess with respect to markets, I go with the asumption that markets plus luxuries get me to "We Love the King Day". As that has a major effect on reducing the corruption headache, plus the market boosts a cities commerce production, I view markets as pretty much indispensable. I am a builder, and go for a lessor number of large cities over a large number of size 6 towns. That definitely makes me the odd man out in commenting. I just have no interest in dealing with so many small towns, nor frantically trying to see how fast I can finish a game. To me, that is not enjoyable. I play for fun, to try out historical "what ifs", and to test unit changes for us in miniature games, the human played kind.

I see potential in almost all my cities and try to make them all metros with every improvement I can build except a few of the modern buildings (Modern buildings are rarely worth the maintenance) I have general rules for improvements like all villages get marketplaces before they become cities, all cities get banks before they become metros and if they become a metro they get a Stock Exchange.

@Chamnix

"Alternatively, suppose you build a granary in 1 city, make it a dedicated worker factory and add workers everywhere to grow from size 7 to 12. You need a total of 25 workers (5 for each city including the one building the workers initially). Each worker from a town (no larger than size 6) with a granary only costs 10 shields and 10 food. Your total cost for 25 workers is 250 food plus 310 shields (250 for the workers and 60 for the granary)."

I think I now see the key part of this strategy that I missed before (did you write the strategy article which suggested this?). *You have to build the workers before your town hits size 7*. I think I had basically implemented this when a town would get to size 12 when I had tried this... or at least I thought it could work as more efficient to do so now. From the math you've given your worker strategy seems more efficient than I thought... and in general quite a strong strategy... as long as you bulid the workers in a pre-7 size town.

[Even if you want a wonder - it is faster to grow 1 town to size 12 by adding 5 workers than it is to grow 5 citizens even with a granary.]

I meant to consider that you want multiple wonders. Still... I think it might work out faster to use your strategy now that I see how to implement it better.

[For example, in a city where I am considering a bank for 160 shields, and the bank will provide me an extra 5 gpt, I could instead build 4 MDI. If those 4 MDI can capture a town for me, and I turn it into a specialist farm, perhaps the town can provide 3 specialists - either 6 gpt from taxmen or 9 bpt from scientists. Even though the bank increases your income some, you are clearly better off building MDI.]

Well you don't get the cash as fast in such a case, but maybe that doesn't matter. Still... you have to take the town by force and you have to fight a war to do this. Granted, that can work out as worth it... but if you notice I tried to say that I play as a builder and didn't consider warmonger management quite as much. Your comment still helps us understand the game better, so thanks.

Kumquat,

"I have general rules for improvements like all villages get marketplaces before they become cities, all cities get banks before they become metros and if they become a metro they get a Stock Exchange."

That sounds aesthetically pleasing in a way... but it sounds inefficient even for a builder.

Meisen,

"Coastal towns can have offshore platforms and commercial docks, both provide huge boosts in shield and commerce generation, respectively. Alot of the other improvements are OK for a specific need if a town has a specific use for them. Things like walls, sam batteries, etc. Most towns don't need these I find." You haven't finished the game by the high middle ages... what are you doing? (this is a joke refering to a comment on another thread).

Doug.Lefelhocz said:

First off... I have to scream at this...

"If you are 90% science, then you have no need for banks." SCREAM! O.K. done... I'll come back to it.

Click to expand...

Could you touch on this please?

When you are set high on research, banks do little good except on overrun turns where you can lower the slider. Even if you aren't maxing on research, a bank should only be built in high income towns, usually in your core.

[Could you touch on this please?]

Wall Street can make you money. In order to build you need 5 stock exchanges which require 5 banks. Consequently, even with 90% science if you have a big enough of a lump sum or will have a big enough lump sum later, 5 banks and then 5 stock exchanges has its uses. As I recall, Wall Street gives you interest gold based on how much you have in your treasury (not gpt or commerce), so 5 banks end up useful eventually.

Wall Street is a nice little gpt boost, but it isn't make or break. I always build it, but I'm an in between player with builder and war-monger traits.

I think you might usually be right Overseer. Still... better safe than sorry, as building it, I think... doesn't change playing style or someone's fun factor.

"And certainly, the shields used up building these commerce improvements could be better spent on archers or cavalry or settlers for science farm exploits. That's how the game was designed to be, right?"

Seriously meisen... and you know the next time you stop training cavalry and build banks instead, I'll compare the cavalry trainer's score to your builder "style" game score as an obviously meaningful comparison and declare YOU SUCK BUILDER... YOU SUCK.

Well my post did make me seem like a mindless money waster but I almost always build the trading company so there free anyway My army never really suffers much from my building frivolous improvements since my economy is so strong I can mass produce any unit if I see the need (I can make 100 tanks in 10 turns easy in an average game).

Edit: I wanted to see if I could back up my claim with my last game and I made 225 tanks in 10 turns at full all out production