3.17 Patch: Impressions Thus Far

Sisiutil

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I'm playing an off-line game right now with the new patch to get a feel for it before continuing with the ALCs. I thought I'd record a few impressions here as I go. Overall, the patch has not resulted in anything resembling a paradigm shift--it's a patch, not an expansion pack, after all. But there are some significant impacts on gameplay that I've noticed.
  • Barb Spearmen: These used to be rare, only appearing as a result of a random event. Now they pop up almost as often as barb Archers, and earlier than barb Axemen. IIRC, barb units of a certain type appear when at least two civs have the unit's prerequisite technology and resource, or something like that; if that's true, then the Spears appear once two or more civs have Bronze Working, Hunting, and copper, which happens early on. Impact: Do NOT try to rely on nothing but Chariots to provide your early barb defense anymore.
  • Barb Ships: These definitely appear more often now, especially barb Galleys, and are more of a pain, pillaging your seafood tiles willy-nilly.
    Impact: Sailing and Metal Casting (and Galleys and Triremes) are higher priorities if you have several seafood tiles you need to protect. Also, early exploration with a Work Boat is less likely to be successful.
  • AI Worker Protection: The AI seems slightly smarter about moving Workers out of harm's way if they're at war and enemy units are in the vicinity. It's not foolproof though. The AI also seems to prefer moving Workers to a "non-threatened" city rather than parking them in the city that's under siege, but that may not be a change that resulted from this particular patch. Impact: Negligible. Include at least one 2-move unit in the stack and you can still capture enemy Workers.
  • Siege Weapon Nerfing: This is significant. The new lack of combat promotions for siege weapons seems to result in more siege weapon fatalities. And not being able to attack from aboard ship is a big loss for intercontinental invasions, at least until you have Fighters and Bombers. Impact: Build more siege weapons, because you'll lose more. The Sirian doctrine is now pretty much obsolete. :sad: If you're invading Amphibiously, bring defensive units to protect the others you'll need to land. You may wish to have these units absorb the initial enemy attack, especially from mounted units, before landing the siege weapons--thus reducing the likelihood of flanking damage and destruction. Pick a landing spot for your stack that has good defensive terrain.
  • Reduced War Weariness: It does seem to be a little less than before, but not by much. Impact: negligible.
  • Goody Hut Scaling: Wow! I'm playing the off-line game at Marathon speed, and goody huts popping for gold are yielding in excess of 100 gold on average. Impact: More gold early in the game means you can research at a deficit longer. This may increase the importance of finding and popping huts; civs starting with Hunting and a Scout have an advantage here.
  • Barbarian uprising events can occur only if you can build a counter unit: Thank heavens--no more games nipped in the bud (hopefully) because 4 Barb Spearmen magically appear on your doorstep when your capital is protected by a lone Warrior. Impact: Fewer abandoned games, or at least less resorting to Worldbuilder to salvage them. ;)
  • New Tectonics Map: Meh. I generated a few of these and checked them in Worldbuilder; there tend to be a lot more hills on these maps, it seems to me, making chain irrigation tougher, leading to more marginal cities. And I got the impression that with fewer choice city sites, everybody tends to start cheek-by-jowl in the same area of the continent. Not my favourite type of map, but maybe if I'm in the mood for a challenge...
 
Here are a few I noticed:

Anti-Air for Machine Guns/Anti-Tank: Very nice for both the AI and the player. On the defensive side, Machine Guns shooting down Airships was helpful, while when I was doing an air attack w/fighters, some of them actually got damaged and had to rest.

Global Warming From Unhealthy Buildings/Lack Of Forests: Provides a nice little limiter on Factory spam, though I'm still likely to risk it. In my latest game, I did my unhealthy spam as normal and tiles started heading to desert around the 1900s.

Both of these are negligible for those who like to win their games with axes, but for a late-gamer, the impact's medium/high -- you'll have to rest your air units more and you'll have to pick your factories with care if you don't want to lose crucial improvements.
 
I am big fan of siege nerfing. It makes wars harder for the human player and more realistic. Long wars should involve massive casualties
 
I am big fan of siege nerfing. It makes wars harder for the human player and more realistic. Long wars should involve massive casualties
Yes, I think the gameplay changes in this patch were very much designed to make success in war a little tougher for the human player. After all, most of us here agree that the main advantage a human has versus the AI is that human players are much better at war, so making war harder for the human makes the game more challenging. So I'm not complaining, I'm just thinking about how I have to adjust to the new rules.
 
Global Warming From Unhealthy Buildings/Lack Of Forests: Provides a nice little limiter on Factory spam, though I'm still likely to risk it. In my latest game, I did my unhealthy spam as normal and tiles started heading to desert around the 1900s.

Both of these are negligible for those who like to win their games with axes, but for a late-gamer, the impact's medium/high -- you'll have to rest your air units more and you'll have to pick your factories with care if you don't want to lose crucial improvements.
I haven't taken the 3.17 plunge yet, so could someone tell me if you suffer desertification due to AI factory spam, or is it applied more regionally?

The former would be more realistic on a global scale, but actually counts in favour of spamming anyway - if you're going to suffer the consequences, you may as well reap the benefits.
 
Hi

I only played one 3.17 game and in that game I had TONS of pollution making cities but no global warmming events. I dont know if it means I got lucky first time out or if you still need nukes going off to get GW started and THEN things like pollution and how many trees and stuff kick in to see how bad its gonna be instead of them causing it all by themsleves.

Kaytie
 
It is just a matter of building more of the conventional units. Also as Lincoln you will be able to produce amphibious units easier for intercontinental invasions. Taking a coastal city is still the best way to start off. You will lose more units. But not as many as if you had parked an SoD for a turn
 
Glitch - No modern roads. Roads stay in the pre-Industrial Age form even when you move up in tech. Or is that just me?
 
Amphibious gunpowder units can attack straight from the ship...as can the viking UU (which upgraded is devastating)
But it will fight fully healed defenders now that there's no (cheesy) way of inflicting collateral damage on them. How's that "devastating" (unless you have a tech advantage)?

Amphibious Cho-Ko-Nu's anyone?
 
Glitch - No modern roads. Roads stay in the pre-Industrial Age form even when you move up in tech. Or is that just me?

that is just graphics, Doesn't change gameplay at all
 
Yes, I think the gameplay changes in this patch were very much designed to make success in war a little tougher for the human player.

Oh dear! So what about those of us who find war tough enough already? :( (I could be in a huge minority here!) I hope it doesn't make too big a difference as war is definatley the weakest aspect of my game.

I have to say I havn't made the plunge to update yet, I'm kind of put off a bit by the increased barb ships, I'm terribly lazy about defending my seafood tiles.
 
Thanks, Sis!

One question though:
[*]AI Worker Protection: The AI seems slightly smarter about moving Workers out of harm's way if they're at war and enemy units are in the vicinity. It's not foolproof though. The AI also seems to prefer moving Workers to a "non-threatened" city rather than parking them in the city that's under siege, but that may not be a change that resulted from this particular patch. Impact: Negligible. Include at least one 2-move unit in the stack and you can still capture enemy Workers.
Are you saying a completely ordinary 2-move unit can catch Workers still?

I though the patch would fix the 'ploit where the AI didn't see the 2-move capability of units like Woodman II Warriors.

It hadn't crossed my mind that they wouldn't fix the basic issue first... :sad:

(I assume we're discussing Workers of civs with which you're at war only. I'm totally cool with surprise DoWs followed by worker looting)
 
[*]Barb Spearmen: These used to be rare, only appearing as a result of a random event. Now they pop up almost as often as barb Archers, and earlier than barb Axemen. IIRC, barb units of a certain type appear when at least two civs have the unit's prerequisite technology and resource, or something like that; if that's true, then the Spears appear once two or more civs have Bronze Working, Hunting, and copper, which happens early on. Impact: Do NOT try to rely on nothing but Chariots to provide your early barb defense anymore.
Okay, this is significant for the early game. I guess on moderately high difficulty levels, where you have time for one go at Chariots or Axes, but not both, before you need Archery, the choice between Animal Husbandry and Bronze Working just became a non-choice.

Not sure I see what was broken and why this needed fixing here...

I guess you aren't seeing a corresponding increase in barbarian Chariots...?
 
It means you can't ignore archery for as long. Archers make fine antibarb city defenders. Personally. Playing marathon speed mean the GW for me everygame
 
that is just graphics, Doesn't change gameplay at all
I know but I miss the proper roads. Makes enough sense in the Industrial Era, none in the modern or future era. Asphalt/tarmac - i.e. modern road surfaces - have been in use since the early 1900s, so they should still change for a more aesthetically appealing look. And they've gone backwards, it's not as if they've added something unsightly, which makes me think some files have gone missing or been overwritten.
 
[*]Barb Ships: These definitely appear more often now, especially barb Galleys, and are more of a pain, pillaging your seafood tiles willy-nilly.
Impact: Sailing and Metal Casting (and Galleys and Triremes) are higher priorities if you have several seafood tiles you need to protect. Also, early exploration with a Work Boat is less likely to be successful.
I guess there's no corresponding check for you being able to build the counter unit before the barb galleys start spamming you?

This makes it official: this game needs a Strength 1 barb water unit (a Warrior or Animal of the seas)!!

Against significant numbers of barbarian galleys you can forget about seafood until you can build Triremes (the same way it's not worth it if all you have against barb Archers or Swordsmen are Warriors and Archers respectively - the attrition level is simply too high)

I hope you aren't seeing more of barb Triremes too, that would really be a pain in the posterior...
 
It means you can't ignore archery for as long.
Did I say anything to the contrary?

My point was that with barb Spearmen AH loses ground compared to BW. I didn't suggest you postponing Archery longer than you already do... :)
 
But it will fight fully healed defenders now that there's no (cheesy) way of inflicting collateral damage on them. How's that "devastating" (unless you have a tech advantage)?

Amphibious Cho-Ko-Nu's anyone?

It's devastating because you're taking 15 combat II amphibious rifles against...like...3 rifles. Then you slip in some CG II defenders. It works just fine at parity - the AI has very little time to reinforce after you declare. You take like 4-6 coastal cities in the first 5 turns of the war. The AI might recapture 1-2 with a big SoD if it has one.

That's assuming tech parity. I'm sure you can imagine what happens when it's maces/knights/muskets vs CG II rifles. I've been doing it for the past 3-4 public games on this forum --->check out ragnar LHC, Qin LHC, NintendoTogepi's 6 city island start, or the shadow game for ragnar (RPC). Note that for both ragnar games VERY few of my rifles were upgraded from berserkers, (which screen shots make obvious).

Unfortunately the drill line doesn't open up amphibious, though it should. Anything to make protective closer in power to other traits. It doesn't though, so amphibious CKN's would take 3 promos :(.

The inability of the AI to whip new units or rush to garrison target cities saves more in hammers than landing and using siege for collateral IMO. In rifles vs rifles I tend to lose 1-3 per city, 3 being pretty unlucky as I usually gun after the lead defender with a unit from one of my better-promoted cities. C II amphibious rifles with pinch have decent odds. Any amphibious rifle will easily kill a damaged defender. Sometimes I get lucky and lose nothing.

Again - you're trading collateral for a MUCH quicker strike ability. If you're lucky enough to have all AI cities coastal, then you can wipe them out very, very fast as their units stagger around trying to reinforce cities. Also, sometimes they'll shred themselves on the CG II pill boxes and that's that, they'll capitulate.

When you can take over 3-4 civs with one unit attacking from boats, that sounds pretty devastating to me...
 
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