What to do for Europe?

[ijnavy]

We could be arguing forever on Europe. Lets decide which idea is better.

[Lord Civius]

Divide Europe into the most important countries. Those in the EU should share religion/culture and start with a defensive pact IMHO.

[Amogos]

I agree with Lord Civius . But split it into Spain, Fance, Italy, Germany and Balkans (Greece) at the most.

[RedRalph]

Heres my proposal:

Keep EU as the most important Euopean states, but weight it so permanent alliance is allowed between them, and when signed, the countries actually merge, so anyone playing EU would take control of all countries in it. this would mean an important challeenge for anyone playing Euro countries, uniting the EU, and would prevent an EU which existed at the start of the game from being overpowered.

any thoughts?

[ijnavy]

I agree with Lord Civius's idea. Though we would need to cut down on civs. We can't have too many civs. I propose that if we go with this idea, then we have the UK, France, Germany, and either Greece or Serbia.

@RedRalphWiggum
I don't think that countries actually merge when they get a permanent alliance. I just don't think its realistic. How would it prevent a powerful EU, it combines countries which makes them more powerful. Do you know how to mod that?

[RedRalph]

Originally Posted by ijnavy

@RedRalphWiggum
I don't think that countries actually merge when they get a permanent alliance. I just don't think its realistic. How would it prevent a powerful EU, it combines countries which makes them more powerful. Do you know how to mod that?

I have no idea how to mod it, but it would prevent an ultra powerful EU early in the game because anyone attempting to play one of the constutuent nations would first have to concentrate on uniting the EU into one large permanent alliance... through dimplomacy, and by staying out of wars. I have no idea if its doable but if it is it should be done, would solve the dilemma and add a nice bit of flavour to the mod.

[Ball Lightning]

Having vassels would be the best way as it is not locked in as a permanent alliance is.

[GeneralMatt]

Make sure to give the UK, whatever it is represented by, a Defensive Pact with Canada, Australia, if New Zealand is in them, India etc.

[ianinsane]

The UK has a Defensive Pact with India??

[SoI]

I don't really think that Commonwealth should be shown in the mod, it's a traditional union not a military or political alliance...

[Lord Civius]

Originally Posted by SoI

I don't really think that Commonwealth should be shown in the mod, it's a traditional union not a military or political alliance...

I agree, lets not get too complicated where we don't have too.

[Mr Historical]

[QUOTE=ijnavy;6989474]I agree with Lord Civius's idea. Though we would need to cut down on civs. We can't have too many civs. I propose that if we go with this idea, then we have the UK, France, Germany, and either Greece or Serbia.
QUOTE]
serbia will add flavour to the mod

[NikNaks]

If we are going to abandon the EU as a civ, we need to think up a logical way to represent it in a game situation. A defensive pact won't be enough to show the economic and political ties they have. Also, we haven't really discussed how NATO will be represented, but I assume it will of a similar, but not as strong, nature to the EU.

[Lord Civius]

Originally Posted by NikNaks

If we are going to abandon the EU as a civ, we need to think up a logical way to represent it in a game situation. A defensive pact won't be enough to show the economic and political ties they have.

Looks like EU with Vassals is ahead.

Also, we haven't really discussed how NATO will be represented, but I assume it will of a similar, but not as strong, nature to the EU.

All Nato countries could start off with defensive pacts and negatives for Russia?

[ijnavy]

My opinion is that there should not be any EU or NATO. They are just organizations.
I think that there should not be any permanent alliances, just make them be friendly with each other.

[Lord Wolf]

I think the EU should be a civ in this mod. Yes it's an organization, but the economic and political ties are very strong.
Furthermore it would be quite unrealistic, when EU-states would stay on opposite sides of a war and fight against each other. But when you split up Europe, that will occur nearly with 100 % probability sooner or later.

The EU shouldn't be as strong and united as the US, but it should represent a new (and maybe a little bit strange) form of an important global-player. Because of that I think the 3rd proposition is the best. It would show the massive inner problems of the Union and that it is far away from being a state like the US, but it would also offer (at least for the player) the chance to push the european integration and make Europe really a united power in the world.

I know it will be difficult to insert an EU like this in the game, but I think it would the best way to show the actual situation of Europe in the world (and that's the aim of this mod i think).

greets Ben

[hevehoc]

i voted for Nr. 3 as the most have done, also sweden is the largest nation of scandinavia

EDIT: not cause it's important but it could have been a vassal.

[Bastian-Bux]

Actually I'd try to represent the "blocs" in the EU:

UK represents UK, Ireland and Malta
France represents France and Belgium
Germany represents Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Luxemburg and Slowenia
South represents Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece and Cyprus
North represents Denmark, Sweden, Finland
East represents Estland, Lettland, Lithuania, Poland, Slowakia, Czech Rep, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania

This way you'd have the economic and cultural zones bundled up a bit.

France and Germany should have very very strong relations, followed by very close relations towards UK, South and North. East should have only strong relations ... with a few Kashinsky events thrown in.

If you want to break it up even more, make Spain/Portugal, Italy and Greece/Cyprus separate nations, and you might also separate the East into three blocs (baltics, eastern and balkan). Scandinavia is culturally and political very close, and shouldn't be broken up at all.

Basically I'd go with either 6 or up to 10 "nations". Max would be:

British Islands: UK, Ireland, Malta
France: France, Belgium
Germany: Germany, Netherlands, Austria, SLovenia
Iberia: Spain, Portugal
Italy: Italy
Greece: Greece, Cyprus
Scandinavia: Denmark, Sweden, Finland
Baltic States: Estland, Lettland, Lithuania
Eastern Europe: Poland, Slowakia, Czech Rep, Hungary
Balkan: Bulgaria, Romania

Hungary should be placed with Poland and Czech Rep for economic reasons. Same about Slovenia and Germany (in reality Austria). Greece and Romania/Bulgaria don't have much common ground either, so don't stack them into "Balkan" together.

About the other states of former Yugoslavia (plus Albania), they should stay separate "minors" as should Turkey ... actually its more likely that the whole Balkan AND Ukraine will become EU members before Turkey I suppose.

If you go along the "central EU plus surrounding civs" version ... make the 6 founder nations as core EU: Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium and Luxemburg.

[hevehoc]

about scandinavia i agree to some parts.... but then we have our national pride raaah!

[Crowqueen]

Originally Posted by ijnavy

I agree with Lord Civius's idea. Though we would need to cut down on civs. We can't have too many civs. I propose that if we go with this idea, then we have the UK, France, Germany, and either Greece or Serbia.

@RedRalphWiggum
I don't think that countries actually merge when they get a permanent alliance. I just don't think its realistic. How would it prevent a powerful EU, it combines countries which makes them more powerful. Do you know how to mod that?

SERBIA?!

Europe should be divided into the major players, but since when was Serbia a major player? Unless I am missing something fundamental about the nature of the mod.

UK/Ireland, France, Germany/Austria/Switzerland, Scandinavia, Baltic Europe, Balkan Europe, Iberia, Benelux, Russia. That would be my division of Europe.

The problem is that the EU is not an incredibly strong institution vis-a-vis nation states. I may, as I said, be missing the point about this mod entirely, but understanding the politics of it all, they can't even pass a Treaty properly nowadays, let alone organise an entire "civilization". From a geopolitical perspective the UK has declined in global importance since Blair left office (no bad thing as we are socially and economically in the state that Germany was prior to 1933...) but it still doesn't go along with the bulk of the EU and not to put either France or Germany in either would be tantamount to saying..."sorry, guys, Kazakhstan is more important than three G8 powers".

Given the size of Europe on a standard Earth Civ map I understand the problem but you cannot have a realistic game without understanding that the EU does not exist as a coherent geopolitical bloc which speaks with one voice. Each country still has its foreign policy and military under its own control, and although the EU has been trying on and off for twenty years to absorb those powers into a collective force, people for some reason keep voting it down (viz the Treaty of Lisbon as the latest failed attempt to create this superstate which would be a bureaucrat's wet dream but would utterly lack any semblance of public allegiance and no national leader would ever vote for in a month of Sundays). As someone who has been on both sides of the issue, and left the federalist movement after it displayed a woeful ignorance of basic democracy, I can safely say that any attempt to portray the EU as one single bloc is probably doomed to failure.