Wondering about going back to 3.13 (War Weariness)?

DanF5771 · Jul 17, 2008

Does that document have to be IN the "XML" folder at the highest level?

Yes, the "xml" folder with the small letters; if you use no other modifications than it will be the only file besides the (mostly) empty folders "art", "audio",...,"units". There will be no specific in-game message.

Maybe you should check your .ini for the settings about caching XML. Mine look like this:

Code:

; Disable caching of file system (may slow initialization)
DisableFileCaching = 1

; Disable caching of xml and file system (may slow initialization)
DisableCaching = 0

When you start BTS, there should be a message "Init XML (uncached)".

Hawaiian · Jul 17, 2008

rather, I think a good solution would have been to buff the war weariness reducing buildings and civics.

then it would make those techs a little more worthwhile.

Woody1 · Jul 17, 2008

WW was pretty insane in 3.13. I couldn't wage a war that lasted more than a few turns, or my cities would all start starving off.

3.17 is definitely reduced a lot. I'm undecided at this point if it's too much reduction or just about right. It definitely makes being a war-monger easier. I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing.

DAKH · Jul 17, 2008

As China, I'm waging a war against a stronger opponent, Gilgamesh, and lost about 1/5th of my forces razing 2 of his cities (It's personal, he is a bastard in this game

), and I'm getting quite a bit of WW in my cities. I can't check it exactly since I'm not at home right now, but I think, with no WW-reducing bonuses, I'm getting 4 :mad:

in my 14-16 size cities, and I've already had to play with the culture slider. I've waged war before of course, and WW does seem less severe now, so I think it's a good change, at least pre-Police State, Jails, etc.

I plan on doing a bit more aggressive conquering in the modren era, so I'll see if the XML file requires modding then if WW becomes too easy to manage.

Edit: Beijing's got 10 :mad:

out of a total population of 20. O.o

I've razed 4 of his cities, lost around 2 cats each attack and a few other units.

onomastikon · Jul 18, 2008

Thank you, I have it now.
Thanks everyone, I suppose this is my first mod! :blush:

yikes.
I was just attacked by Ethiopa and his vassal, Isabella. Now, all my cities are totally lost in unhappiness. And I have Zeus. My espionage isnt high enough to see into his cities, but it must be a lot worse than mine are, right? I am still surprised because WW is so very high right from turn 1, and I didnt even declare. I thought it was a lot higher if I declare first, and usually only starting after a few turns. Odd, but at least it is a big challenge!

Hawaiian said:
rather, I think a good solution would have been to buff the war weariness reducing buildings and civics.

then it would make those techs a little more worthwhile.

How would one go about doing that?

CLST · Jul 18, 2008

Up the percents on WW reduction? Maybe add a set # WW - :mad:

? Make them cheaper?

onomastikon · Jul 18, 2008

Hm, I meant: How exactly to write and mod that?

But this brings me to another question whose answer I can no longer find: I could have sworn that there was information somewhere listing the math or "reasons" behind WW accumulation. I don't need exact mathematical numbers, but would be very interested in getting a list of events which help explain how WW is accumulated.
When you roll-over the happy

/

unhappy listing in the city screen, you get a brief run-down or "explanation" of the current status, e.g.

+3 we love this great city of ours
+6 we love our luxurious recources
-21 it's too crowded!
-2 we can never forget your cruel treatment!
-7 War! What is it good for!?!

What I am looking for is a breakdown of the WW itself. Something like
- 2 You declared on Monty!
- 2 We've been at this for 5 turns now!
- 2 We have 6 units in enemy lands!
- 1 Two of our units got killed in the last 5 turns!
or whatever it is that makes up the WW.
Can anyone help me out?
thanks

DanF5771 · Jul 18, 2008

You might want to check out Krikkitone's atricle in the War Academy.

IronCrown · Jul 18, 2008

A breakdown doesn't make sense really, because the sole source of WW is combat action. Every battle you fight on tiles where you are not culturally dominant generates WW points. Afaik there are no other factors contributing to WW. The duration of a war or who started it doesn't mattter at all.

Balderstrom · Jul 18, 2008

Woody1 said:
WW was pretty insane in 3.13. I couldn't wage a war that lasted more than a few turns, or my cities would all start starving off.

3.17 is definitely reduced a lot. I'm undecided at this point if it's too much reduction or just about right. It definitely makes being a war-monger easier. I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing.

I really don't get this statement at all. I've played Huge Ice Age maps as Ramesses II where I was at war for most of the game. I can't say I ever felt War Weariness was crippling - a nuisance perhaps and easily overcome with jails and Hereditary Rule.

blitzkrieg1980 · Jul 18, 2008

IronCrown said:
I've only completed one game with 3.17 so far, and that was a totally peaceful culture win (my second win ever on Immortal btw ), so I don't know yet how significant the change to WW is. But I welcome it very much, WW was just too severe. Now maybe it will be worthwile again to wage protracted wars before jails and Mount Rushmore. After all, in reality war was the normality before modern times.

It's different now? Or is it just not near your home? War is a reality to us Americans (albeit not on our own soil) since we've only had about a total of a decade or so in the 20th century where our country wasn't involved in some kind of conflict or "crisis". War is just as much an issue now as before. It's just less likely to occur on Western European/American/NorthEast Asian soil.

onomastikon · Jul 19, 2008

IronCrown said:
A breakdown doesn't make sense really, because the sole source of WW is combat action. Every battle you fight on tiles where you are not culturally dominant generates WW points. Afaik there are no other factors contributing to WW. The duration of a war or who started it doesn't mattter at all.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you are saying.
I could swear that I see a difference in the number of unhappy faces I have in a city due to War Weariness depending on
- how many turns I am at war
- whether I declared or was declared on
- whether many enemies are in my cultural borders or not
- whether I lose battles or win battles
- the size of my cities
But maybe I am totally mistaken...

Woody1 · Jul 19, 2008

onomastikon said:
I'm afraid I don't understand what you are saying.
I could swear that I see a difference in the number of unhappy faces I have in a city due to War Weariness depending on
- how many turns I am at war

Sure, probably because the longer your war is, the more troops you lose in enemy territory.

- whether I declared or was declared on

I don't think so. Do you think you get more or less if you declare war? For equal losses, if you start the war in enemy lands (i.e., you declare war), you'll get more WW simply because you're dying in their territory.

- whether many enemies are in my cultural borders or not

Sure, if the enemy is in your borders, and is killing you, that won't contribute to WW because you're not dying on foreign soil.

- whether I lose battles or win battles

Well yeah, of course. If you win a battle, you don't get WW for that.

- the size of my cities

Yes, that is true. Large cities have proportionally more WW than smaller cities. I'm not sure if it's linear to the pop level or not.

But maybe I am totally mistaken...

No, most of your opinions can be explained by the simple fact that WW is caused by you dying in foreign lands. The things you mentioned are just a side-effect of that.

onomastikon · Jul 21, 2008

The last time I checked, I was Declared Upon by Isabella. I immediately had a high WW, so that I had to change to Police State right away. I lost a couple of ships in my cultural borders. I had no losses in enemy lands. For the duration of the war, so far, I have had no troops in enemy lands. My WW increases.

Woody1 · Jul 21, 2008

onomastikon said:
The last time I checked, I was Declared Upon by Isabella. I immediately had a high WW, so that I had to change to Police State right away. I lost a couple of ships in my cultural borders. I had no losses in enemy lands. For the duration of the war, so far, I have had no troops in enemy lands. My WW increases.

Were you at war with Isabella in the recent past? WW is remembered, even after the war ends. It takes awhile for it to dissipate.

IronCrown · Jul 21, 2008

onomastikon: There's a thread in the Strategy Articles forum "WW explained". Someone analysed the code, so you can read it all up if you want. The code doesn't lie

blitzkrieg1980 said:
It's different now? Or is it just not near your home? War is a reality to us Americans (albeit not on our own soil) since we've only had about a total of a decade or so in the 20th century where our country wasn't involved in some kind of conflict or "crisis". War is just as much an issue now as before. It's just less likely to occur on Western European/American/NorthEast Asian soil.

True, but there is war and real war, so to speak. The US is constantly engaged in limited military operations, but the last real war, really affecting all the people, was World War II. And even then there was no combat action on US heartland, iirc.

(When I say "real" I mean real for the American population, of course. Those 'limited wars' are real enough for the countries where they take place

)

I know many Americans regard 9-11 as an act of war on US soil, but however terrible it was, it was only one day.

But there are a lot of countries, especially in Europe, that have not experienced even limited wars for a long time. And there are of course even more countries who are torn by war at this moment. But my point was, in former times war was the normality everywhere and at any time.

edit: This is the thread on WW mechanics: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=181512

King Jason · Jul 21, 2008

Hawaiian said:
rather, I think a good solution would have been to buff the war weariness reducing buildings and civics.

then it would make those techs a little more worthwhile.

How could they? With the buildings and civics you reach 100% WW reduction.

Jail + Rushmore + Police State = 100%

Buffing one would require the nerfing of another. So it'd be fruitless. Unless you wanted to take emphasis off of police state (50%) and split it with another building, perhaps that comes earlier in the tech tree (like the courthouse, but I wouldn't do that) by making it another +25% WW reduction. So you'd have 4 sources of 25%.

onomastikon · Jul 21, 2008

King Jason said:
How could they? With the buildings and civics you reach 100% WW reduction.

Jail + Rushmore + Police State = 100%

Buffing one would require the nerfing of another. So it'd be fruitless. Unless you wanted to take emphasis off of police state (50%) and split it with another building, perhaps that comes earlier in the tech tree (like the courthouse, but I wouldn't do that) by making it another +25% WW reduction. So you'd have 4 sources of 25%.

In my current game, in cities with a jail, and with rushmore up and running police state, I still have quite a bit of WW.
Hence I think that 100% reduction must mean something like "cut in half"?

IronCrown · Jul 21, 2008

No. With jail, Mt.Rushmore and Police State WW is zero. You may still see a few unhappy faces for "we don't want to fight our brothers and sisters in the faith" or "we yearn to join our motherland", but definitely no "war? what is it good for?".

MarkM · Jul 21, 2008

onomastikon said:
In my current game, in cities with a jail, and with rushmore up and running police state, I still have quite a bit of WW.
Hence I think that 100% reduction must mean something like "cut in half"?

No, it means eliminated. I've seen/done it many times and can confirm it.

You must either not have the buildings/civic you thought you have, or you've changed your xml or something.

Wolfshanze said:
40% reduction is a significant reduction

And 60% reduction -- the actual change, going from 5 to 2 is a 60% reduction, to 40% of it's previous level -- is about 50% more significant

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