The Spread Culture Espionage Mission revealed

UncleJJ

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The Spread Culture Espionage Mission – some ideas for using it.

Synopsis: This mission is a powerful tool in the hands of an espionage economy. It can help with rapidly recovering cities after conquering them. It can even be used to make a legendary city as part of a cultural victory. It can be chain linked over many cities spreading the effect to cities not normally targetable. It can massively reduce the cost of other espionage missions. There are many reasons to understand what this mission can do.
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Recently I’ve been trying to find a use for this mission. It has usually been written off as useless or unusable by most commentators trying to make sense of the Espionage System, but in that case it has been seriously misunderstood. I suppose that might be because it is required to understand how the espionage system works and how the culture system - and both are complicated.

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First let’s define a few terms that I’ll be using, otherwise what I say might not make sense.

City Culture (CC): The total culture in a city. It increases each turn by the amount of culture per turn. When it reaches certain values the city borders pop (10, 100, 500, 5000 and 50,000 are values for border pops at normal speed). When a city is captured the CC value is retained and if recaptured starts from where it left off. It is possible for 3 or 4 civs to have its own CC value for a city.

Culture per turn (Cpt): This is a value the player can manipulate by constructing cultural buildings, wonders, running artist specialists or raising the cultural slider. It consists of a base culture and has several multipliers including cathedrals and Free Speech.

Tile Culture (TC): The value of a civs culture in a tile. Each turn a city adds culture to the surrounding tiles inside its borders. The amount added is Cpt plus a bonus of 20 for every zone (or border pop). So tiles close to a city get a bigger bonus and also they have been accumulating the culture for a longer period. More than one city can add TC to a tile in a turn. It is TC that determines who controls a tile. To be under control the tile needs to be inside the border of at least one of the city of its civ and to have the highest TC. Another civs might have higher TC in the tile but it is not within their borders and so outside their control. Yet another civ might have borders that extend over the tile but the TC is not high enough.

Spread Culture: A spy mission that adds 5% culture to the CC of a city. It has a base cost of 3 EPs per culture added to the city. But this base cost is modified by all the normal spy modifiers including a penalty for distance from capital, a -10% for each turn the spy is stationary, state religion modifier, trade route modifier, security bureau, total espionage spending and CCM (see next).

City Culture Modifier (CCM): There is also an additional espionage modifier that depends on your CC in that city. And the way you increase that is by running multiple missions. The more culture that’s added the better the discount you get for this and other missions. So if you want to steal techs on the cheap run a few Spread Culture missions first.
[Incidentally, I’m not sure of its exact value but it seems to be a ratio of your CC in the city versus the CC of the current owner of the city. Perhaps someone can dig into the code for the precise value.]

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Many players using the Spread Culture mission expect it to affect the TC, but is doesn’t, it affects the CC instead. In fact it is the only way to increase the CC of a city when you do not control the city. But because it doesn’t affect the TC directly most players think it’s useless.

The secret is that you need to use the Spread Culture mission and then capture the city. When it comes out of revolt that city then starts with whatever culture you managed to inject.

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When can you use the Spread Culture mission?
This also causes confusion because you can only use it in cities that are in range of the culture from another of your cities. On border areas this means that you need to get border pops such that you are putting culture into the city tile of the target city. Then you can start running the mission.

Mission Costs:
The amount of culture added by the mission is always 5% of the total of all the current CCs from all players (including yourself). So the base cost can escalate as you run your missions and add more and more culture to your CC or it can increase as the city develops under its current owner. Sometimes it might be better to wait a while for the owners CC to grow so that fewer missions are needed, which will reduce spy losses and needs less management. Also waiting can allow time for a bigger EP spending discount to be built up or for you to add your state religion to the city.

Chaining Cities valid cities:
Actually you don’t need to have the target city in cultural range of one of your own cities. You are not limited to the enemy border cities. Once you’ve built up the CC of a target city it also counts as a virtual “source” of your culture (although TC is not generated of course). Remember the Spread Culture mission works on the CC. It seems that the Spread Culture mission is available based only on whether you have a city with a high enough CC. So you can either increase the CC of your own cities by adding Cpt until the border pops, OR you can increase the CC of an enemy owned city using the Spread Culture mission. In that way you can construct a chain of cities deep into enemy culture. If enemy cities are 3 tiles apart you need 500 CC to bridge the gap.

How to use it for conquest:
One of the great problems with late game warmongering is capturing a large number of cities which have been in place since the beginning of the game. Unless you can wipe the other civ out Motherland can be a serious problem. Even if you do wipe out the civ, so all his culture is removed, the neighbour’s culture can be a serious problem. It takes a long time to build up 500 culture if you have to start from zero and can only add one building a turn. The alternative of a few Spread Culture missions raising the CC to 500 before the city is taken makes this situation a lot easier to handle.


Making a Legendary City:
This is an interesting twist on how to get a cultural victory. Instead of getting 3 cities up to 50,000 culture using the traditional ways - I won’t detail these but there are good threads and discussions on these forums – you can use the Spread Culture mission to raise the CC on one (or even two) target cities that you simply capture and they become Legendary as soon as they come out of revolt. So you might make 2 Legendary cities the traditional way (and use any Great Artists to boost these at the end) and then use your EPs to get the third city to Legendary.

To make a legendary city the normal way requires a great deal of effort in that city, constructing wonders and buildings (particularly cathedrals) and then spends many turns gaining 500 to 1000 culture. Note other cities can’t help raise the CC of these (soon to be) legendary cities directly. They can help, indirectly, by raising gold, spreading religions, building the 3 temples needed for each cathedral and making enough troops to defend the legendary city. The limitation on a cultural victory is usually how quickly you can get your third city there. By only having to raise 2 Legendary cities that means unique buildings such as wonders and national wonders can be shared between two rather than 3 cities and a lot less temples and cathedrals are needed and importantly any Great Artists only need to be shared between the 2.

Using the Spread Culture mission means that all your cities can help with making the EPs and building spies. So having a lot of cities is useful and they can directly affect the target city. Also you can very rapidly turn a city Legendary – if you have enough EPs stockpiled and enough spies ready to run the missions (I guess the survival rate is about 80%). If the capital is close (move it, if it’s not) and you have railways the spies are in the target city every turn. They can start there, perform their mission and return to the capital, then next turn they move back, and after that they wait a few turns until the desired discount is built up.

As mentioned before, the base cost of raising the CC is 3 EPs per culture point. But with the discounts (including the City Culture modifier) and the large espionage spending advantage means that you are effectively paying 1 EP for 1 culture. Failed missions cost a spy and do not lose the EPs. A spy is only 40 hammers and at this stage of the game, in the Renaissance or Industrial ages, many cities can build one per turn with a hammer overflow (which generates cash). Another huge advantage is that once you have the EPs and spies stockpiled you can add many 1000’s of culture to the target city CC each turn (I think my record is 12,000 in the last turn). This is far more rapid than with normal culture. Only a great artist culture bomb which adds 4000 to the CC can get close to a well orchestrated set of Spread Culture missions. You could even combine the approaches and use a spare great artist to finish off a city that hadn’t quite made 50,000 CC.

In fact a hybrid approach is possible, although I’ve not tried it yet. You could say have your capital which has a lot of wonders and has been going a long time and that will be one legendary city. Just leave that to cook away in the background. Then you see a good target city (perhaps with lots of fully developed towns) all it needs is to be on your side and some cathedrals and some turns. So you dump whatever EPs you have build up at that stage into Spread Culture missions (say 30,000 EPs) and capture the city. So it starts with 30,000 CC and has a much more manageable task despite a late start. Now use US to rush buy some good culture modifiers and when the time is right turn up the cultural slider. Meanwhile the rest of your cities are building up a huge stockpile of EPs and spies for the third city.


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Closing remarks:
Those are the things I've discovered and ideas I’ve had in the last few days while developing these strategies. I’m sure many of you can come up with better ways to use this idea in ways I can’t imagine. I’d like to hear your comments. :) I might edit this OP in light of comments.

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[Disclaimer: I have not yet updated my BtS to the latest patch as I had many games to finish. The tests and all information given above are correct for the Bhruic patch. However, I do not expect the aspects of the game discussed here to be significantly changed as it was not mentioned in the changes list. I will update my BtS to the latest patch in a week or two.]
 
The question is if this is in any way faster than just going straight for culture from the get go? Getting alot of cities will take a huge amount of resources... Getting up all the EP buildings is certanly slower than going sushi and pumping through loads of borrowed resources(although this might not work in each game ofc).. Also you still have to shut of research so not sure if it is any safer either, right?
 
Excellent post, thank you.

A few questions.

1. Is there no risk of the city revolting to you before you are done feeding it the necessary culture? (for the legendary city attempt at least)

2. With the military application, do you think it would be reasonable to dump many EPs into culture on the city then take it and have your city pop at border 4 or so (particularly earlier in the game), and then use the cultural pressure of your city to cause other nearby cities to revolt, effectively reducing the number of cities you take to 2 or 3?

I like the ideas, and will have to try them.
 
The question is if this is in any way faster than just going straight for culture from the get go? Getting alot of cities will take a huge amount of resources... Getting up all the EP buildings is certanly slower than going sushi and pumping through loads of borrowed resources(although this might not work in each game ofc).. Also you still have to shut of research so not sure if it is any safer either, right?

I doubt this. EP's are very easy to get, and have very nice modifying buildings and specialists.
 
Given that you can win cultural before 1000 AD on deity on marathon i am not sure how it would be faster...
 
The question is if this is in any way faster than just going straight for culture from the get go? Getting alot of cities will take a huge amount of resources... Getting up all the EP buildings is certanly slower than going sushi and pumping through loads of borrowed resources(although this might not work in each game ofc).. Also you still have to shut of research so not sure if it is any safer either, right?

You might be right, I'm not sure. I have only done this once and so I can't pretend to have it fully thought through. As I pointed out in the OP the real power of this method is the way you can concentrate the power of a lot of cities to generate the EPs.

Using 20 cities (good ones and junk) each with all the espionage buildings and running 7 spy specialists powered by Sushi will be an impressive way to generate EPs, that's about 2000 EPs per turn without raising the slider :eek: and Representation on spies gives a ton of beakers. Some cities mighyt even pop a great spy = 3000 more EPs.

In contrast Sushi only affects the 3 legendary cities with the traditional cultural method, it might add 30 base culture which is multiplied to 150 culture, a useful addition but not game breaking by any means.

Mainly I see this as a method to get a third cultural city when you have a failed domination attempt; when it's too much trouble to plough through all those stacks on the other continent. You might have 2 good cities on your continent suitable for legendary culture but there is no suitable 3rd one. So instead of wiping out all your enemies you leave just one city on your continent and build up your EP infrastructure.
 
1. Is there no risk of the city revolting to you before you are done feeding it the necessary culture? (for the legendary city attempt at least)
Not unless you put the city under a lot of cultural pressure and there is no need to do that. You will be building up your CC in their city and that doesn't affect the TC ... until you capture the city when it will pump out a lot of culture over a very wide area.


2. With the military application, do you think it would be reasonable to dump many EPs into culture on the city then take it and have your city pop at border 4 or so (particularly earlier in the game), and then use the cultural pressure of your city to cause other nearby cities to revolt, effectively reducing the number of cities you take to 2 or 3?

I like the ideas, and will have to try them.
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. There is no border pressure until you capture the city and then it starts out with whatever culture you injected into it. If you put 500 CC into a lot of cities they quickly get rid of motherland and can immediately put pressure on nearby cities. Once you get up to 500 culture many cities are adding TC into each others city tiles with overlapping borders. That gets rid of motherland very quickly.
 
About what date did you finish your game for cultural with the help of espionage?
 
I think he was implying that with sufficient culture pumped into a captured city that the captured city could actually put a ton of pressure on the target civ itself. This would particularly true if you got a city to legendary then took it - MASSIVE culture pressure on nearby cities in that case...enough to cause flips even :lol:.

This is interesting because from a WW standpoint and tactical standpoint the culture may easily be worth the hammers/EP investment, even if one isn't playing for a culture victory. A city with 500 CC would quickly become difficult to counter attack due to culture D and having to move through its borders - and it would allow the player to leapfrog further in with military too.

I'm going to have to try this out to see if it is cost-effective. This tactic, if it isn't too costly, seems like it could drastically shorten wars.

Edit: It seems to me like if you had a fairly big continent, you could mostly kick it around, leave 3 enemy cities, and with EP spam you could actually send THREE enemy cities to legendary without even trying to go for culture initially (or two plus your original capitol which now can have hermitage and ALL GA's). This does seem like it could be a viable alternative to pushing for space or DoWing the other continent(s), if its time/cost aren't too high.
 
Does having CC via spread culture influence the revolution period after taking a city?
The amount of culture added by the mission is always 5% of the total of all the current CCs from all players (including yourself).
I take it that's the current CCs from all players in that city?
 
Does having CC via spread culture influence the revolution period after taking a city?
I think that culture does reduce the duration of the revolt. It does seem that way in my games. But I'm not sure if it's the CC or the TC aspects of culture that reduces the duration. I'd appreciate someone who is able to read the code delving into that aspect.

I take it that's the current CCs from all players in that city?

Yes, normally that will be the efforts from all the previous owners of a city. As far as I know the AI does not use the the Spread Culture mission so that would be the only way they could build up their CC
 
I have but three simple strategic questions:

1. The return is greater the larger the enemy city's culture is, correct? So it is ideal to target the best competitor's best culture-laden city (usually capital) filled to the brim with wonders and culture producing buildings such that it has a high total culture? [In this case, the 3 enemy cities legendary victory might not be so feasible, unless you nail 3 separate enemy capitals.]

2. Is there no limit to the culture you can plant in the city? Could you keep doing missions such that your culture surpasses the city's, and yet still continue pumping more?

2. Does your planted/espionaged culture add to the city's culture? So if you eventually manage to espionage your way into equalling the city's culture (thus making it 50-50), would further espionage missions (assuming #2 is yes) end up giving you double the culture compared to right when you started? [This could end up with a nice geometric progression.]
 
Spread culture is 5% of the total culture of the city ?

hmpf :/ so supposing an ennemy has a lengendary city and I have suffiscent EP with no more than 15 spies I can make that city legendary to me too ?

sounds great :) i'll try it.
 
I have but three simple strategic questions:

1. The return is greater the larger the enemy city's culture is, correct? So it is ideal to target the best competitor's best culture-laden city (usually capital) filled to the brim with wonders and culture producing buildings such that it has a high total culture? [In this case, the 3 enemy cities legendary victory might not be so feasible, unless you nail 3 separate enemy capitals.]

2. Is there no limit to the culture you can plant in the city? Could you keep doing missions such that your culture surpasses the city's, and yet still continue pumping more?

2. Does your planted/espionaged culture add to the city's culture? So if you eventually manage to espionage your way into equalling the city's culture (thus making it 50-50), would further espionage missions (assuming #2 is yes) end up giving you double the culture compared to right when you started? [This could end up with a nice geometric progression.]

This sounds like a fun thing I want to try. These are the same questions I had after reading the opening post. Any chance you know the answers already?
 
Great tip! Maybe not for players who can win at deity before 1000 AD but for mortals as me it is an option I never considered. I am sure it will be in the near future. I use all out EP sometimes in close space races but Culture seems an even better option now when fighting back from behind.

@Themeinteam: if I understand UncleJJ correctly the massive culture will not cause culture pressure after you capture the city: the initial CC amount is not relevant, it is the Cpt on TC and those are not affected. You do get the border-pop bonus right away though.
 
Nice information, thanks for sharing, UncleJJ!

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. There is no border pressure until you capture the city and then it starts out with whatever culture you injected into it. If you put 500 CC into a lot of cities they quickly get rid of motherland and can immediately put pressure on nearby cities. Once you get up to 500 culture many cities are adding TC into each others city tiles with overlapping borders. That gets rid of motherland very quickly.

There are 2 implications here that I thing are wrong:

- Motherland. Motherland doesn't depend on TC. It does only depend on CC. Since one mission gives 5% of culture in the city (or is it 4.8% since you get 5% of the initial culture and then city total is 105% and you have 5% out of it?), one mission saves you 1 twentieth of the unhappy faces caused by motherland.

- Your cultural preassure. Once you capture a city and have (for example) 500c in it, you start putting TC in the tiles around. Now, since the city is doing 0cpt, it will be injecting 0TC in the outer ring, causing not cultural preassure at all. On the inner rings it will start injecting some TC, but since the city has been owned by the other civ for centuries, it will be very difficult to flip even the closest tile, as long as another of his cities is still putting TC on the tile.
 
I have but three simple strategic questions:

1. The return is greater the larger the enemy city's culture is, correct? So it is ideal to target the best competitor's best culture-laden city (usually capital) filled to the brim with wonders and culture producing buildings such that it has a high total culture? [In this case, the 3 enemy cities legendary victory might not be so feasible, unless you nail 3 separate enemy capitals.]
The amount of culture spread is 5% of the sum of all the CCs in the city. An enemy city with a high CC (like a capital) will cost more EPs and will spread more culture with a single mission. For instance if it had 2000 culture when you ran your first mission it would add 100 culture. Your next mission would add 105, the next 110 and so on.

2. Is there no limit to the culture you can plant in the city? Could you keep doing missions such that your culture surpasses the city's, and yet still continue pumping more?
Yes, that is the idea. Your CC is a number independent of his CC. You can increase your CC by the Spread Culture mission. He can increase his CC by the normal Cpt or by a great artist bomb.

2. Does your planted/espionaged culture add to the city's culture? So if you eventually manage to espionage your way into equalling the city's culture (thus making it 50-50), would further espionage missions (assuming #2 is yes) end up giving you double the culture compared to right when you started? [This could end up with a nice geometric progression.]

The Spread Culture mission is 5% of his CC plus 5% of your CC and 5% of anybody else's CC who might have owned the city in the past (and is still in the game). So as you add culture to your CC there is a rapidly increasing progression. I send my spies in stacks of 3 or 5, wait a few turns and then fire them all off in quick succession. Each mission from the stacked spies adds more culture than the previous one, but doesn't cost proportionately more EPs, since there is also an increase in the City Culture modifier.
 
Spread culture is 5% of the total culture of the city ?

hmpf :/ so supposing an ennemy has a lengendary city and I have suffiscent EP with no more than 15 spies I can make that city legendary to me too ?

sounds great :) i'll try it.

Yes, an already legendary city would require the minimum number of spy missions. Other cities might be a better target. The cost depends on spy discounts and they can vary a lot between cities, distances being important both for travel time and the EP penalty.

Most of the spies will survive and can be used again, some fail the mission and get killed (but you don't lose the EPs), some complete the mission but get killed. Just make sure you have plenty of spies and make a few replacements. They only cost 40 hammers which is peanuts at that stage of the game.
 
Interesting post.

Is there any way to tell what your CC in an enemy city is, or do you just shuttle spies deeper into enemy territory and see if the mission is still available?
 
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