Cannons

bestbrian

bestbrian

Just this guy, ya know?
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
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So, once again Rifles come in and I go on a conquering rampage with my mid-late 19th century representational Rifelemen and their siege train of Cats and Trebs. That's right, Cats and Trebs.

Could we correct this for Civ V, please? Cannons shoud come in with Gunpowder and another siege unit, call it Rifled Cannon, should come in with Rifles. I play Warlords so if this was addressed in BTS, sorry, but if not, well what the heck are they waiting for?
 
Cannons come from Steel, which comes from Chemistry, which comes from Gunpowder. This isn't far ahead of Rifling, which requires Replaceable Part.

They're from the same tech period, you just have to focus on both. It's a split tree and obviously you want to beeline Rifling first.
 
Joshua368 said:
Cannons come from Steel, which comes from Chemistry, which comes from Gunpowder. This isn't far ahead of Rifling, which requires Replaceable Part.

They're from the same tech period, you just have to focus on both. It's a split tree and obviously you want to beeline Rifling first.
Click to expand...

I dig the concept, I just happen to think that it's silly. In RL cannons were used as siege weapons before the most rudimentary muskets went into service, hence if Gunpowder is going to open up Musketmen it should also open up Cannons.
 
adopt the galactic civilizations unit creation/customization system and problem solved. its sort of become my mantra
 
trickofthehand said:
adopt the galactic civilizations unit creation/customization system and problem solved. its sort of become my mantra
Click to expand...

Yes, and there are no problems with implementing this in Civilization IV, because the base code and customization modules already exist in the game.
 
Yes, I'm sure there are many mods that fix this and many other things (big thanks to the mod community for their time and effort, btw) and that's something I'll be looking into eventually, but I'm hoping that this is something that would be addressed in the next edition of Civ that would improve the "base game". This is just one of my personal peeves with the game that I decided to vent about (well, this and shipping a product that's still "beta" and requires unpaid fans to create patches to fix it after plunking down X number of $, but I digress). Marching Rifles and Trebs together, as my state-of-the-art army, just irks me.
 
Hm, yes, having units of different eras is a pain sometimes. I've run into the Rifleman/Trebuchet problem countless times. But that's just Civ's way of telling you to balance your techs, in my opinion.

Edit: Oh, and, I was being facetious in my post above.
 
Jerrymander said:
Yes, and there are no problems with implementing this in Civilization IV, because the base code and customization modules already exist in the game.
Click to expand...

to even assume that I meant this for civ 4 is beyond ridicolous, considering it is not common practice as far as i'm aware to integrate two commercial release games together.
assumption makes an ass out of, well just you.
 
I don't think Cannons should come in with Gunpowder, but Steel is bit a bit to late for Cannons. Most cannons were made with cast iron, anyway. What about Chemistry, as a compromise? Or have a weaker cannon with, say, 10 :strength: with Gunpowder, and a Heavy Cannon with Steel and Replaceable Parts that has 14 :strength:. Also, Handcannons would be a nice unit to add in. Give them, 11 :strength:, an anti-first strike, and a bonus against siege units and an ability to target them like Khmer Ballista Elephants.
 
trickofthehand said:
to even assume that I meant this for civ 4 is beyond ridicolous, considering it is not common practice as far as i'm aware to integrate two commercial release games together.
assumption makes an ass out of, well just you.
Click to expand...

No, I'm absolutely sure you meant it for Civilization IV, seeing as how this forum name is "Civ4 - General Discussions: Ideas & Suggestions", and you suggested "adopt the Galactic Civilization II unit creation system and problem solved".

I don't see how I am being an ass.
 
Onionsoilder said:
I don't think Cannons should come in with Gunpowder, but Steel is bit a bit to late for Cannons. Most cannons were made with cast iron, anyway. What about Chemistry, as a compromise? Or have a weaker cannon with, say, 10 :strength: with Gunpowder, and a Heavy Cannon with Steel and Replaceable Parts that has 14 :strength:. Also, Handcannons would be a nice unit to add in. Give them, 11 :strength:, an anti-first strike, and a bonus against siege units and an ability to target them like Khmer Ballista Elephants.
Click to expand...

Cannons should come in with Gunpowder (what propels a cannonball?) as they preceded muskets which come with that tech. Now a "lesser cannon" (Bombard?) that comes in with Gunpowder and a full strength cannon that comes in with Rifles would be fine, but some form of siege should definitely come in with Gunpowder.
 
bestbrian said:
Cannons should come in with Gunpowder (what propels a cannonball?) as they preceded muskets which come with that tech. Now a "lesser cannon" (Bombard?) that comes in with Gunpowder and a full strength cannon that comes in with Rifles would be fine, but some form of siege should definitely come in with Gunpowder.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. However, the Cannon(Unit) can not come in with Gunpowder, at least now how it is now, because it is to powerful. 12 :strength: at Gunpowder, with no counters, wouldn't work.
 
It would be very simple to mod cannons to require Rifling and Chemistry instead of steel.

Don't do this in the real Assets folder, you will need to make a new folder in the mods folder (name it cannons mod), put a folder inside that one called Assets, paste UnitInfos into it, and then edit the file in there. Remember, to change XML files, you right click on them and select "edit".

In the cannon entry in UnitInfos find and highlight <TechTypes> and paste the following code in its place.

Code: 
<TechTypes>
				<PrereqTech>TECH_CHEMISTRY</PrereqTech>
				<PrereqTech>NONE</PrereqTech>
				<PrereqTech>NONE</PrereqTech>
			</TechTypes>

Then change <PrereqTech>TECH_STEEL</PrereqTech> to <PrereqTech>TECH_RIFLING</PrereqTech> (Its right above the last thing you changed)

Now you just load that mod as you would any other mod and cannons will require rifling and chemistry instead of steel.
 
My first thought is to make Rifling require Steel. This makes imminent sense, mostly because a reliable rifle requires something harder than iron, but more importantly, it also eliminates the "Musketmen get outdated too soon" argument, and I would accept it as a quick-fix.

However, it doesn't avert the fact - the OVERWHELMING FACT - that cannons came well before muskets. The Steel-based Cannon in this game appears to be a breech-loader, a technological development all in itself. Some other unit - Bombard sounds good to me - needs to appear at Gunpowder to take the place of older Siege units.

Then you can make the Cannon require Rifling too, since they really ought to. A Parrot Rifle wasn't something you could heft on or to your shoulder, you know.

I also wouldn't mind seeing wooden ships get a small strength boost when such guns are built too.

The only real downsides I can see to this are that it MIGHT make people beeline Rifling more than they do, but with the added cost of techs to research, I think it will be manageable. Boost the cost of Rifling if you need to. ALso, you might have a few gripes about the life of a Bombard being too short, but it wouldn't be any shorter than that of a Musketman, whose life has just been extended.

The major use of a Bombard would be to nullify Walls, not to have a strength boost. As it is now, it's better to bombard unwalled cities with Trebs than with Cannons, and I don't hear anyone propounding delaying the upgrade of Trebs, so a Bombard that's only ST8 and has the bombardment ability of a Cannon seems like a great bridging unit.
 
TheDS said:
My first thought is to make Rifling require Steel. This makes imminent sense, mostly because a reliable rifle requires something harder than iron, but more importantly, it also eliminates the "Musketmen get outdated too soon" argument, and I would accept it as a quick-fix.

However, it doesn't avert the fact - the OVERWHELMING FACT - that cannons came well before muskets. The Steel-based Cannon in this game appears to be a breech-loader, a technological development all in itself. Some other unit - Bombard sounds good to me - needs to appear at Gunpowder to take the place of older Siege units.

Then you can make the Cannon require Rifling too, since they really ought to. A Parrot Rifle wasn't something you could heft on or to your shoulder, you know.

I also wouldn't mind seeing wooden ships get a small strength boost when such guns are built too.

The only real downsides I can see to this are that it MIGHT make people beeline Rifling more than they do, but with the added cost of techs to research, I think it will be manageable. Boost the cost of Rifling if you need to. ALso, you might have a few gripes about the life of a Bombard being too short, but it wouldn't be any shorter than that of a Musketman, whose life has just been extended.

The major use of a Bombard would be to nullify Walls, not to have a strength boost. As it is now, it's better to bombard unwalled cities with Trebs than with Cannons, and I don't hear anyone propounding delaying the upgrade of Trebs, so a Bombard that's only ST8 and has the bombardment ability of a Cannon seems like a great bridging unit.
Click to expand...

Thank you. Cannons preceded Muskets with Gunpowder in RL and should come in with Gunpowder in Civ. A previous Poster had stated they were overpowered at Gunpowder, but I don't see how. If you want to bring a less powerful cannon (call it a "Cannon" and give it the same strength as a Treb. but with the Gunpowder ability to ignore Walls and requires copper), and bring a more powerful unit at Rifling (Rifled Artillery - additional strength over Cannon), please do. Having my Riflemen Armies toting Trebs in the siege train is Civ-ridiculous and not even remotely historically accurate. Your point about naval craft getting an upgrade with Gunpowder to reflect shipboard weapons improvements is well taken, as well. However, Civ does a pretty crappy job with naval unit diversification as it is; I would hope that Civ V would address both these issues. This is about the time Wolfshanze chimes in to tell us about his mod and how it addresses the unit/tech gap regarding coal-fired navies (no offense Wolf - just read ALOT of threads and setting the stage for you. Do you address the Cannon issue?). :)
 
I don't think he implements my improved boat idea, but I'm pretty sure he's got enough units that it would be redundant.

Mortar, Bombard, Cannon... I suppose these would all be good for the Gunpowder unit. Make it require Copper or Iron (or both).

Cannon (if not already taken), Parrot Rifle, or Gun would work for the rifled gun.

The more I think about this, the more I want it.
 
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