Religious Victory Exploit

Misotu · Aug 28, 2008

I've only just started playing BtS and thought I'd try the Religious victory as my first venture. I've been reading up on the threads to try to get some advice as to how to proceed, and also looking at the logs for HoF victories by some of the better players.

I have the impression that there was an exploit in the earlier version of BtS which allowed the player to call an election for Diplomatic Victory, then change religions after the vote was called thus doubing their own vote and avoiding the population cap intended to prevent a self-vote victory. At the time, this was of course totally legal and permitted by the game, but as I understand it the current version of the game has fixed this "bug" to prevent self-voting.

It looks to me as if some of the games currently in the Hall of Fame tables used this loophole, which would mean that those games could not easily be beaten - in fact are even perhaps unbeatable - because the loophole made it so easy to win that way. Is there any plan to address this?

WastinTime · Aug 28, 2008

I think the strategy of changing religions after the vote is still working.

EDIT: Now I read that maybe 3.17 doesn't allow this.

There's really no reason to fix it. It doesn't help that much and it is not required to get the best dates. I probalby used it just to be safe; A few extra votes can't hurt. It sux if an opposing city grows by 1 that same turn and you lose. You might note that I did not use this tactic on my speediest 2040 BC finish.

Jimmy Thunder · Aug 28, 2008

I'm not 100% sure what the 3.17 fix does and doesn't allow. I know from experience that under 3.17 if you change to the AP religion on the turn that the vosts are cast then the "Apostolic Elections have been cancelled".

I'm not sure if this means that any trick to tip your number of self votes over the threshold on the last turn will trigger the same event.

This may mean that a self vote has been completly excluded, or maybe there are some tricks that still work?

You can get fast times without using a self vote. This is mostly done with having Hatty as one of the AI, because she is probably the easiest to get to +8 relations (due to her friendly nature, religious affinity and favourite civic). Marathon speed helps, since the number of turns for diplomatic bonusses to kick doesn't scale with game speed.

Mesix · Aug 29, 2008

The old self vote loop hole allowed you to have enough votes to vote yourself in after switching religions (doubling your votes). The Diplomatic Victory will not come up as an option if you have enough votes by yourself to ensure victory. To achieve a diplomatic victory, you must have at least one AI player vote for you.

I believe that the AP Elections being canceled only comes up if you switch religions and have enough votes by yourself. As noted above, the best times can be achieved by cherry picking your opponeents and getting one or two of them to +8 relations. You also have to spread the AP religion to at least one city in each of the AI civs. It is best to spread to all of your cities and additional cities for friendly AI civs who are likely to vote for you.

Even in 3.17, an AP diplomatic vote can be achieved with only you on the ballot (no AI opponent to vote for). As long as you build the AP and no AI players are running the AP religion as their statate religion, you will be the only candidate on the AP balot. Most AI players that are +8 relations or better will vote for you in this situation.

I hope this advice helps you out.

Misotu · Aug 29, 2008

WastinTime said:
There's really no reason to fix it. It doesn't help that much and it is not required to get the best dates.

I haven't played a religious victory yet so it's hard to know, although just intuitively I'd have thought that voting yourself in would be a lot easier than trying to get diplomatic relations up to +8 so early in the game. In addition, I'd have thought the 75% threshhold would be harder to avoid without the loophole. But if you say this is the case then it's probably right - I appreciate that you'd probably only have to get one other civ to vote for you.

Still ... +8. Quite tough unless you're using the bonus from sharing a religion? And if you use that bonus, surely then there is more than one candidate in the election, the likelihood being that your new best friend is actually the opposing candidate? :crazyeye:

I suppose I'll just have to get on with it, play a game and find out

Misotu · Aug 29, 2008

WastinTime said:
You might note that I did not use this tactic on my speediest 2040 BC finish.

Just had a quick look out of interest & saw that this was a duel map with Hattie and Ramses as opponents. I also noticed that Ramses converted to Christianity (the AP religion) in 2070 which looks like he was just in time to be the opposing candidate in the election? (If the Apostolic Palace works like the UN) So now I'm really intrigued - you somehow managed to get Hattie to +8 in spite of the negative points from not running her religion. All by 2040. And she preferred you over Ramses even though Ramses was running organised religion at the same time as Hattie and for longer than you. :dubious:

Mesix · Aug 29, 2008

If you build the AP, you do not need to keep the state religion. Build the AP as Christianity and then switch to Hatty's religion. If you are running Organized Religion Civic and have her state religion then she is almost guaranteed to be +8 or better.

The candidates for the AP elections are whoever built the wonder and the player with the AP state religion that has the higherst population of that religion (only counts population in cities that have state religion for voting purposes). If you build the religion and no one is running the state religion then you will be the only candidate. In the case above, if Ramses is running the AP state religion and the player and Hatty share a different religion then Ramses will be the opposing candidate, but Hatty will likely vote for the player.

WastinTime · Aug 29, 2008

I had alphabet, so I get +4 for giving tech. +1 peace, +2 Open Border, + 3? civics
It's really pretty easy.

Mesix · Aug 30, 2008

You didn't even include the +4 for "brothers and sisters of the faith" which should be easy to get on any single landmass map. If you cave to demands and cancel trade with "worst enemy" AIs when asked you get additional bonuses. On standard sized and larger maps, including a whipping boy in the player selection (like Monty or De Gaulle) that all the AI playes can hate equally to get War diplo bonuses is also easy to do. I think that I have gotten Hatty up to +16 diplo by the time the Religious (Diplomatic) Victory vote came up.

cabert · Aug 30, 2008

I was unaware of this. Looks like an exploit to me.

WastinTime · Aug 30, 2008

Mesix said:
You didn't even include the +4 for "brothers and sisters of the faith" which should be easy to get on any single landmass map. If you cave to demands and cancel trade with "worst enemy" AIs when asked you get additional bonuses. On standard sized and larger maps, including a whipping boy in the player selection (like Monty or De Gaulle) that all the AI playes can hate equally to get War diplo bonuses is also easy to do. I think that I have gotten Hatty up to +16 diplo by the time the Religious (Diplomatic) Victory vote came up.

For really fast wins, there's no time for a war. It's usually 1 city, sometimes 2 for me and I'm always building missionaries, workers, wonders.

I also don't share their religion, so no "brothers & sisters" bonus...or very little. You don't want anyone to adopt the AP religion if you can prevent it. Use your first missionaries on the AI that already have a religion. The AI that are religion-less should get their missionary as late a possible in a new city of size 1.

magpie_robert · Aug 30, 2008

What determines whether you get the Victory vote though? I've been trying to play G-Major 34 and played for over 200 turns after building the AP and spread Christianity to the AI who are now friendly enough to vote for me. But the vote never comes...

I am the only candidate and get voted leader over and over......

BLubmuz · Aug 31, 2008

What i think about the AP victory is that it's the most stupid VC ever.
I use it only for HoF purposes.

Mesix · Aug 31, 2008

I like the AP better than the UN. With the AP there is a strategy to spreading religion and using the benefits of the religious game mechanics. The UN victory just requires you to suck up to the majority of the AI players or to Capitulate and Vassalize them into voting for you. The UN vicotry seems lame both from the game play standpoint as well as the concept. How does becoming Secretary General of the UN equate to dominating your rivals, spreading humanity to Alpha Centauri, or becoming a cultural icon of the world? At least the AP victory seems relevant for the early eras that it is available in.

BLubmuz · Aug 31, 2008

I agree.
In fact the second most stupid VC is the Diplo.
Again, i pursue this kind of VC only for HoF reasons and not with BtS.

Pointless to debate which is the first or the second most stupid, an ex-equo is deserved, i guess.

Misotu · Sep 1, 2008

WastinTime said:
I had alphabet, so I get +4 for giving tech. +1 peace, +2 Open Border, + 3? civics
It's really pretty easy

.....

I also don't share their religion, so no "brothers & sisters" bonus...or very little.

Yes, I got those positive scores, but if you're not sharing their religion how do you get round the huge negative scores for running a different religion? In my (so far, only) game, the negative scores for the founders of rival religions are really high - Hattie was at -5 within a few turns (*way* before 1000 BC) so the overall diplomatic rating was only +5.

My other problem was that the AIs started spreading the AP religion themselves. Assiduously

With the result that my position just got worse and worse.

I suppose this means that I was just too slow building the AP, although it was up and running by 1000BC, and I need to get out of the AP religion probably by running the religion of my best friend, as Mesix suggests.

WastinTime · Sep 1, 2008

If you run no religion, you don't get the negtives.

Misotu · Sep 2, 2008

Yes of course. I didn't spot that you'd switched to no religion in your HoF games - must have missed it

Misotu · Oct 1, 2008

Well, I've played a few (quite a few!) more religious wins now. I think the early self-voting switching religion loophole was definitely an exploit and should be excluded. For very early wins, it is a cake walk. Anyone who didn't need it can easily repeat their victory using the current rules so it's hardly an issue, if that's the case. From what I can see, gaining a victory in the same time while excluding the loop-hole requires quite a lot of extra planning/production. And luck

The game now prevents this as an option. I think that confirms what I am saying. Not intending to be harsh, and I would not be a contender for those HoF spots, but other people might be excluded by what was permitted earlier. This is a blatant exploit IMHO.

I feel strongly that games submitted prior to the update that outlawed this exploit should be excluded. Comments?

Lexad · Oct 2, 2008

I completely agree, Religous is rather easy as it is, without cheesy self-voting.

Religious Victory Exploit

King

Deity

King

Obergruppenführer

King

King

Obergruppenführer

Deity

Obergruppenführer

Big mouth

Deity

Chieftain

HoF Quattromaster

Obergruppenführer

HoF Quattromaster

King

Deity

King

King

oldfart

Similar threads