A Great Pirate

I am on a island world with 3 other civs. I am the Mayans. Due to slow growth factors there have been no wars (yet). I fast tracked to chemistry and spawned privateers. They produced a great general for me, and no one is yet researching chemistry, although they have got astronomy.

I took my general, renamed him blackbeard and moved him into a fort with my best privateer. Now Blackbeard sails a very nasty ship. He is at combat 4, which makes him stronger than an unpromoted frigate. I was the first to circle the world, and gave him an extra movement point and leadership.

He is now grabbing a caravel or galleon on almost every other turn with movement left to sail to saftey. He is just destroying the sea lanes. If I can keep him alive, it will promote to a real nice destroyer for free.

I know these circumstances don't arise very often, but next time you are in a archipelago, try the great pirate. Money, combat, and plausible deniabilty!

Aaargh.

and fun

So cool

In a situation like that, you should build enough Privateers to walk from island to island without getting your feet wet (to paraphrase a quote from "Hunt for Red October"). You should have enough to blockade every enemy city, and then probably double that so you can whale on their shipping, should they be bold enough to try any. You may need a few extra spares for busy areas, some of which will need Medic promos.

Make a push to get MilSci so you can have Blitz, for those cases when you need to wipe out small fleets and get lucky enough to not take much damage from a particular battle.

When assigning a Warlord to a Privateer, you want it to preferably be one that's already got 2-3 Combat promos behind it. Then when you pull this powerhouse off the front lines to give him his leader, 99% of the time, you want his first promo to be Leadership, and then work toward Blitz, and then work your way to Combat6. This will make one hellacious killer, if you can find good feeding grounds, and should get you another Warlord in short order.

Remember not to get too cocky, though. A Frigate's base ST is 8, compared to your 6. Even 3 EXTRA Combat promos don't quite tie, unless you're defending on coast, and it gets worse quickly as they start getting promos. NEVER leave your pirate sitting on Ocean tiles if you have a choice. The 10% coastal bonus doesn't sound like much, but it's a Combat promo. It's also a good idea, once enemy Frigates start appearing, to move away from that nation, and pair up as you're doing it, so you can hopefully kill the bugger that kills your Privateer. Keep your eyes open to recall ALL your boys, and expect losses to be high.

Once the waters are too dangerous to sit in, you can still have a couple of them sitting in your cities, waiting for something to come by, until Combustion comes along and they can be made into powerful Destroyers. If you're close to a promo, then just wait to upgrade until you've gotten the last couple points so they don't go to waste.

Good Points DS, I can see you have done this before. My Privateers rule the seas, and I just got Military Science. I will have decide between blitz and combat 5 for the next promotion.

Most enemy cities have 1 ship in blockade mode, and one on top of it to grab prizes. I am ready to run for home as soon as they can produce frigates.

I am hoping to be ready to start the wars before they get frigates, I just need to build up the army.

Paul666 said:

If I can keep him alive, it will promote to a real nice destroyer for free.

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I still just can't get over that... going from a 18th century sailing schooner to a 20th century modern steel and turbine destroyer.

There's something horribly wrong with skipping over a 100 years of naval development and warships in this game.

That's why I had to fix that in my mod. I couldn't stomach an upgrade from sailing ships to WWII destroyers while skipping the entire 19th and early 20th century.

Wolfshanze said:

I still just can't get over that... going from a 18th century sailing schooner to a 20th century modern steel and turbine destroyer.

There's something horribly wrong with skipping over a 100 years of naval development and warships in this game.

That's why I had to fix that in my mod. I couldn't stomach an upgrade from sailing ships to WWII destroyers while skipping the entire 19th and early 20th century.

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And having Galleys/Triremes forever until Frigates.

I rather give them Drill IV first to safely cure the AI's Caravel fever without risking many scratches. Then Leadership and then Combat 1,2,3 for the eventual Blitz.

The best training camp is a Moai city of someone like Monty.

Wolfshanze said:

I still just can't get over that... going from a 18th century sailing schooner to a 20th century modern steel and turbine destroyer.

There's something horribly wrong with skipping over a 100 years of naval development and warships in this game.

That's why I had to fix that in my mod. I couldn't stomach an upgrade from sailing ships to WWII destroyers while skipping the entire 19th and early 20th century.

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What's really scary about the WWI navies is how much old technology they were using at the start of the war. That said, Civ's a game, and it works for the game mechanics.

The original, Strategic Conquest, avoided the problem by not having Eras.

avalonnn said:

What's really scary about the WWI navies is how much old technology they were using at the start of the war. That said, Civ's a game, and it works for the game mechanics.

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I don't know what you mean "it works for the game mechanics"... it would also work if Axemen jumped to Infantry (a 15-point jump) with no units in-between (no swordsmen, no macemen, no musketmen, no grenadiers, nor riflemen)... you realize the jump between frigates and SotL to Destroyers is a 22-point jump?!?! Yeah... of course "it works" because Firaxis didn't give you any other choices.

Firaxis chose to ignore, quite-literally, 100 years of naval development and leave a 22-point gap in the naval tech tree, when it won't hesitate to fill a 1 or 2 point gap in the land tech tree. It "works" whether or not you leave the gap... that doesn't mean it's desirable or makes a lot of sense.

I think this is more a matter of "recognition" when it comes to skipping over 100 years of naval development... everybody knows well-enough about the great sailing ships of yore and about WWII warships (for the most part), but the ships of the 1800s and the great coal-fired navies are little-known (in comparison)... so when they focus on the well-known ships and completely skip-over the coal fired navies... who cares, right? Didn't really know them anyways. I think leaving a 22-point gap in the naval tech tree screams to be filled (and of course the whole thing about literally skipping the 19th century [and early 20th century] development of coal-fired navies).

You're forgetting ironclads, so its really only an 18 str jump.

Wolfshanze said:

I still just can't get over that... going from a 18th century sailing schooner to a 20th century modern steel and turbine destroyer.

There's something horribly wrong with skipping over a 100 years of naval development and warships in this game.

That's why I had to fix that in my mod. I couldn't stomach an upgrade from sailing ships to WWII destroyers while skipping the entire 19th and early 20th century.

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I was contemplating CIV naval development again last night, which lead to some researching here and other places. Since I quite agree with you that coal navies are the biggest hole in CIV units( it was a coal navy that the US used to defeat Spain and become a world power), since you're both the leading authority and leading advocate of them at Civ Fanatics' Forums and since readers here may not be very aware of your mod - there's no better time and place to discuss this.

I guess that units in CIV represent both weapons/machines/technology and men/wisdom/experience .

As for sailing ships I can easily imagine a vessel being broken down in a yard and recycled into a bigger and better man-of-war - masts becoming topmasts, main battery becoming secondary armament and so forth.

Likewise, the skills of the captain and crew are readily transferable and adapted.

But it always seemd to me that there was a problem when we switched from wind to coal and wood to steel. To my way of thinking, sailing ships could upgrade to ironclads, but ironclads are the end of the line for the wooden ship. Metal ships should start from scratch, or upgrade from other metal ships.

As for the officers and crew I can see that there are about 300 of them on both a sailing frigate and a destroyer, but there's a big difference in skillsets because of the diferences in tech. At the same time I can see that a Sir Francis Drake, a Henry Morgan , or an Old Jarvy wouldn't just disappear.

Perhaps a sailing ship's GG could be detached when it becomes obsolete for another command or attach to a port as an academy or instructor.

And I miss the enslave feature frigates and privateers had in CIV III.

Wolfe, could you explain how your coal navy units and upgrades work ?

brades said:

You're forgetting ironclads, so its really only an 18 str jump.

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I'm not forgetting Ironclads... as Ironclads in-game are coastal-only moving slower then almost all of the sailing ships, and who (if anybody) ever builds them? I was counting ocean-capable, sea-worthy vessels... which is a 22 point gap.

No... who forgot Ironclads is Firaxis, because the unit they did include in the game is nothing more then an armored river gunboat and essentially useless in gameplay... it in no-way represents the "true" Ironclads of the 19th century that were faster then their counterparts, ocean-worthy, and much more powerful then anything from the age of sail.

If I forgot Ironclads, so did everybody else... how come all of these threads talk about upgrading privateers and frigates to destroyers... I never hear anybody talking about upgrading Ironclads to destroyers... because nobody bothers with ironclads. Please correct me if you think I'm absurdly wrong here (and you can forget the one time in a thousand that an ironclad as Firaxis made it might be helpfull... I'm talking about the "norm"... most people build Civ4 frigates and privateers, but few build ironclads).

Having said that, even if I were to concede that the slow, coastal-only ironclad crumb that Firaxis threw-in was a viable naval option (and it isn't), you've still got an 18-point gap in the naval scale... which would still be greater then the difference between Axemen and Infantry... so let's wipe-out Swordsmen, Horsemen, Longbowmen, Crossbowmen, Macemen, Knights, Musketmen, Cuirassiers, Grenadiers, Riflemen and Cavalry to make it even with the equivelant naval gap... that's a 15-point land gap covered by eleven land units...

How many naval units cover a 18 point gap? Eleven? Nope... try ZERO!!!

Rusty Edge said:

I was contemplating CIV naval development again last night, which lead to some researching here and other places. Since I quite agree with you that coal navies are the biggest hole in CIV units( it was a coal navy that the US used to defeat Spain and become a world power), since you're both the leading authority and leading advocate of them at Civ Fanatics' Forums and since readers here may not be very aware of your mod - there's no better time and place to discuss this.

Wolfe, could you explain how your coal navy units and upgrades work ?

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Sure... well for starters, I laid the foundation of my naval changes by breaking down ship classes into "ages"... much like there's not a single land-class (there's Melee, Gunpowder, Siege, etc), I differed the naval classes, so that each class would get bonuses against previous classes (to help further the difference between ships with similar Strength-stats).

There are now six major naval classes:


While there are now six naval categories/ages, most of them include units already in the game... there's really only one fully-filled out age (Age of Steam) and two "new" ages (Pre-Dreadnought and Dreadnought)

Naval Unit Changes/Ages/New Units:


The above stats covers the most significant changes to the naval tree, most age of sail and nuclear-age vessels are pretty-much as they already are in the default game (excepting the bonuses against previous ages). By breaking-down the ages, the 22-point gap is even further realized since newer ages get bonuses against previous ages.

Also, new naval-only combat promotions have been added, such as Damage Control and Fire Control:



Coal is now actually a VALUABLE resource instead of a near after-thought, as any coal-fired navy needs it to survive... and without coal, you can forget having a navy in the industrial age.

You can now enforce your will on the backwards civs still using wood and sail instead of steel and steam... speak softly and carry a big stick with your pre-dreadnoughts and dreadnoughts...

Pre-Dreadnought HMS Canopus


Dreadnought USS South Carolina


Well... that's what I did to fix the massive naval gap...

...or you can just shrug your shoulders and make the "magic" jump from privateers to WWII destroyers...

Wolf, your mod sounds pretty cool. How about compatability with BUG/BAT? I am pretty new to modding with Civ IV. I agree there is a big hole in Naval play in this game. It is more of an after thought. But in history, naval warfare played a huge role from the ancient age to the modern.

Edit: On topic, the GG privateer sounds fun! I will have to try it out my next game once I get back from vacation. I am in Nags Head, lots of pirate history here.

I'm pretty sure others have used BUG with the Wolfshanze Mod (I think they put the BUG files in the Wolfshanze Mod folder, but since I don't use BUG, I'm not sure about that). I do have a "Attitude Icon mini-mod" which has a couple of things from BUG, but it's not nearly as extensive.

In any case, if the naval aspects interest you, give it a try. Oh... and Carriers come with light bombers too...

Back to the original topic: The fun thing about giving your privateer Drill promotions (first) is that it gets more experience when killing Caravels. If I recall correctly a (non-Leadership) privateer with combat 2 or less gets 2XP when attacking a Caravel, while on combat 3 or more he only gets 1XP. This is regardless of the number of Drill promotions, while Drill 4 will make it nearly invincible when attacking Caravels.

Once the AI has something better than caravels it quickly becomes quite dangerous for your privateer anyways (as in; I tend to start losing them after that).

Wolfshanze said:

I'm pretty sure others have used BUG with the Wolfshanze Mod (I think they put the BUG files in the Wolfshanze Mod folder, but since I don't use BUG, I'm not sure about that). I do have a "Attitude Icon mini-mod" which has a couple of things from BUG, but it's not nearly as extensive.

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Yeah, we pretty much just put the BUG files in the Wolfshanze Mod folder. It isn't perfect, though, due to problems with the military adviser with defensive pacts and/or permanent alliances. It's a small thing, though.

The main problem with going the Drill line is that it doesn't get you Blitz, and there's usually not enough bait to go around to get more than a handful of pirates up to Blitz anyway. The life of a pirate is perilous, they see the highest loss ratio in most of my games. (Stiff competition with Catapults.) I usually can't get the seas deluged with them, and I do try to cover multiple cities with them (saves a lot of money), but I just don't get that much unless it's a big map with a lot of coastal cities.

The first time I went bonkers with Privateers, I wound up building like 60 of them, got 3 GGs before ever having declared a war, and still wasn't able to cover everyone before the bigger players started developing Frigates and started hunting them down. They lose a few Frigates to pirate teams, they start pairing up, and even wasting SotLs on them, which get no bonus. When you've got a group of 5 Frigs + SotLs hunting you, don't bother conglomerating, it's NOT worth it, get the heck out of there and hope that +1 you got from sailing around the world is enough to escape!

In that game, I managed to get 3 vassals thanks in part to the piracy, and really held back most of the AIs, but like I said, a few were too advanced and got defenders out there.

Then there's the occasional school of Caravels. They build 8 or so of them, cowering in the city, and finally MIGHT attack that lone pirate sitting out in the ocean to cover 5 cities at once because it's so far away and none of his friends have been able to get there yet to help him out. A lot of the time, you'll lose a guy to only 2 Caravels, until you start with the Combat (or Drill) promos, and then you can take on 3-4 most of the time, occasionally more, but they don't usually throw more than 3 at you, and they usually send bait out there and if you damage yourself enough, THEN they kick your butt.

Another problem I see with Drill, if I might wander back, is that if you DO take a hit, that leaves you significantly weaker than if you had had Combat.

Additionally, it takes at least 2 Drill promos to get a decent effect, whereas you only need one Combat promo to fear no Caravel, and really, you want Drill3 to start feeling safe.

'Tis a shame Privateer effectiveness is so very limited.

I hope nobody tells Wolfshanze about what Calvery upgrade to...

Totally skippable post about Ironclads.

FTR, I tend to build Ironclads when I'm not blasting my way to Combustion in need of a killer navy. 3-6 for home defense to free up Frigates for mid-seas and over-seas (I subscribe to the protected sea lane doctrine), because they're cheap and available (much more so than SotLs) and with round-the-world and Nav2, they're faster than enemy Frigates and will kick their butts as well as those of SotLs. No need to worry about SotLs.

If I have targets close by, like still on my continent, Ironclads are much better at bombarding than Frigates, and are cheaper than SotLs, so I'll throw out another 3-6 for that purpose. That lets my Cannons charge instead of bombard.

They're slightly cheaper to upgrade to DDs than Frigates, because they were slightly more expensive to build. I can always find a use for a turbo Destroyer; they're very good at getting into trouble spots very quickly, or as defenders there can be fewer of them to cover a given coastal area with their reach of 11 (12 with Fridge).

Also FTR, I've started building Castles more frequently than I used to (which was never) for the same reason I put Airports all over the place, but also because they're REAL CHEAP and give EP bonuses to boot. I still don't care about their defensive worth, as I rarely need to defend a city.