Legacy epic mod: preview thread

[WildWeazel]

Legacy is a full epic mod that I've been working on for quite a while. It's currently in its third theoretical incarnation, but this is the first that actually made it to development. I've been slowly accumulating ideas and content over the last couple of years (including a few threads to gather opinions) that eventually formed themselves into a full mod. I've drawn inspiration from Rhye's mod, RaR, MEMII, player1's patch suggestion mods, and various others, but hopefully this will be a unique and fun experience.

The purpose of the mod is simple: introduce new concepts without sacrificing the familiar feel of Civ3, and increase realism and depth without sacrificing gameplay.

I started out with a nearly empty BIQ and have implemented almost all of the first era. It's fully playable but needs some balancing. Also, aside from LH animations, there is no custom artwork yet, so screenshots at this point would be pretty boring.

Civs: I pulled out Byzantines, Koreans, Hittites, Sumerians, Netherlands, and Portugal; and added Austria, Siam, Sioux, Mali, Ethiopia, and Israel. Each civ will eventually have 2 UUs, in the same or different timeframes depending on the history of the civ.

BTW, does anyone know where I can find that one for Persia? I found it months ago and can't remember where

Techs: Each era will be divided into two ages: Ancient & Classical, Medieval & Rennaissance, Colonial & Industrial, Atomic & Digital. To get to the second age you must research most of the final techs from the first age. There will be about twice as many techs per era as in the regular game, but each will provide something new.

Units: Unit lines have been completely reworked, but for the most part follow the same basic lines as the regular game: offense, defense, support, fast, etc. Each age (two per era) will typically introduce a new unit in each line. I discussed units in this thread a while back. I can't keep the graphics up to date with Sandris releasing new unit packs every weekend, but the names and roles probably won't change much.


Buildings: Most of the original improvements and wonders are still here, many with the same functions, but many more are being added. These include, in the ancient era, Baths, Shrine, Docks, Arena, Stonehenge, and the Silk Road.

Resources: All of the same resources that appear in the regular game plus many more. Camels and Elephants give access to alternate cavalry units, many ancient wonders require Stone, and new luxuries such as Tea and Salt have been added. Most strategic and luxury resources in a city radius provide an improvement for added benefit.


Govs: In addition to the standard governments, more have been added: City State for small peaceful civs, Imperialism for expansionist warmongers, and more to come in later eras.

Concepts: MEMII's Empire system of wonders has been incorporated, allowing conquered nations to act as vassal kingdoms under the Imperialism government. Several minor civilizations will appear as resources in only one location, providing special free units. Slavery is represented as a set of buildings, requiring access to Natives, providing increased production and free labor, at the cost of unhappiness. Religions will be associated with certain techs, which will provide a free wonder representing a Holy City. The Religious trait has been renamed Political, and now reduces the cost of administrative buildings in addition to no anarchy.

Balancing: UUs will have increased stats or abilities, but not start a Golden Age. Only Armies and Wonders can do that. Armies hold only 1 unit, but have a massive HP bonus. One type is created in battle and has superior stats, but each civ can have only 1 at a time. Another, slightly inferior Army will be spawned from the Military Academy. Artillery units will be spawned from buildings that may only be built in certain cities. All civs can build Scouts, but Expansionist civs also will have a superior Tracker unit. Civs will have a primary and secondary trait. Both will include the hard-coded ability, but the primary trait will come with a free no-era tech that gives some special bonus or item.

SO ANYWAY
I have most of the mod planned out, with only grunt work standing in my way. There are a few things that I need some help with though, mostly advice.

One thing that I'm stuck on right now is Civ traits. Since I'm including free techs for the "primary" trait, I'd like to give each civ a unique combination of primary and secondary traits. With 8 traits that's 56 possibilities, no problem there. But I just don't know enough about many of these civs to accurately assign them traits without doubling up or shooting in the dark. This is what I have so far, but it's all open for debate:

[Blue Monkey]

Another possible & sensible slot for India would be Agricultural / Scientific or vice versa.

I look forward to following the development of this mod.

[Hikaro Takayama]

Looks good so far....

So, for the new leaders, I'm guessing:

Rome: Constantine, France: Napoleon Bonaparte, Greece: Hector?, Russia: Czar Alexander?, Babylon: Nebuchadnezzar II?, Egypt: Ramses II, Mali: Mansa Whashisname?, India: ?, Persia: ?, Ethiopia: ?, Mongolia: New version of Genghis Khan Temujin, Israel: either King David or King Solomon, Sioux: Red Cloud? Crazy Horse? Sitting Bull? Rain-in-the-Face?, Germany: Karl der Groß (a.k.a. Charlemagne)? Friedrich Barbarossa?

Did I get any of them right?

[WildWeazel]

@Blue Monkey: Agr/Sci sounds good, you're the expert!

Ah, right, leaders:
Rome: Dictator Gaius Julius Caesar
France: Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte
Greece: King Alexander the Great
Russia: Czar Peter the Great
Babylon: King Hammurabi
Egypt: Pharaoh Rameses II
Mali: Mansa Kankan Musa
India: Emperor Asoka
Persia: King Darius/Xerxes
Ethiopia: Queen Makeda
Mongolia: Genghis Khan Temujin
Israel: King David
Sioux: Warchief Rain-in-the-Face
Germany: Emperor Frederick Barbarossa
Arabia: Caliph Abu Bakr
America: President Abraham Lincoln
China: First Emperor Qin Shi Huang
Japan: Emperor Meiji or Shogun Tokugawa
Aztecs: Emperor Montezuma
Iroquois: Chief Hiawatha
Maya: King Yax Pac
Inca: Sapa Inca Huayna Capac
Ottomans: Sultan Osman
Zulu: Chieftain Shaka Zulu
Siam: Suriyothai?
Austria: Emperor Franz Joseph
Norse: King Harald Hadraada
Celts: Chief Brennus
England: Queen Victoria
Carthage: General Hannibal

[Blue Monkey]

If you want an Indian title for Asoka "Chakravartin" = Emperor.

[WildWeazel]

Chakravartin Asoka it is.


I could also use some help with UUs. Each civ should have two, at least one land unit, no artillery, aircraft, or "mercenary" units. They can be from the same age if the civ had one particular period of dominance, or from different ages.

Here is what I have so far. Some of them I'm not even sure what they are.
Rome: Legionary, Auxilia?
France: Frankish Axeman, (Napoleonic) Guard?, Chevalier?
Greece: Hoplite, Trireme?
Russia: Cossack, T-34?
Babylon: Akkadian Bowman?
Egypt: War Chariot? Axeman? Mameluk?
Mali: Songhai Knight?
India: Mahout Elephant Eider? Tiger Warrior?
Persia: Immortal Spearman
Ethiopia: Oromo Horseman? Derg Soldier? Shifta?
Mongolia: Keshik, Mangudai?
Israel: Maccabean Warrior?
Sioux: Mounted Carbine? Sunka Wakan?
Germany: Panzer? U-boat? Teutonic Knight?
Arabia: Ansar Rider? Saracen Archer?
America: Minuteman, USMC?
China: Cho Ko Nu, Firelancer?
Japan: Samurai, Kensai?
Aztecs: Jaguar Warrior, Eagle Warrior
Iroquois: Mounted Warrior
Maya: Javelin Thrower? Slinger?
Inca: Chasqui? Inti?
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi
Zulu: Impi? Ibutho? Lion Warrior?
Siam: Nak Rohp? Cha Saaen?
Austria: Grenzer
Norse: Berserker, Longboat
Celts: Gaelic Swordsman?
England: Longbowman, Redcoat? Man-o-War?
Carthage: Bireme?

[Civinator]

Weasel Op, I´m looking with interest on your new epic mod and I´m sure if you do such a mod, this will be a great one. I´m working on an epic mod, too, that contains nearly all my suggestions I made over the last years about C3C. So may be soon we can enjoy our new epic mods mutually.

As UU for Austria I suggest the Hussar or the Pandur,
for Carthage of course the war elephant (and may be the bireme)
for the US the US cavalry and a modern tank
for Israel the Merkava and the Maccabean Warrior.

[Hikaro Takayama]

I'd say for the US, the USMC would be good.... The US Marines are not only one of the best semi-elite forces in the world (actually, they're better fighters than many nations' ELITE soldiers), but among the best rifle shots of any non-sniper units (and Marine Snipers are among the best of those)..

...And also, perhaps Gustav Adolph OR Gustav II Adolph would be a better leader for Scandanavia (or maybe King whasisname of Denmark who founded the Union of Kalamar).....

[Blue Monkey]

India - certainly an elephant unit. Consider the ratha (Indian chariot).

[Civinator]

Originally Posted by Hikaro Takayama

for the US, the USMC would be good.... The US Marines are not only one of the best semi-elite forces in the world (actually, they're better fighters than many nations' ELITE soldiers), but among the best rifle shots of any non-sniper units (and Marine Snipers are among the best of those)..

Yes, they are good, but they come lately in the game.

[Blue Monkey]

Originally Posted by Civinator

Yes, they are good, but they come lately in the game.

I guess 1775 is rather late compared to some of the other units. * But since each civ will have 2 the other could come much earlier.



* which suggests UUs that upgrade to UUs.

[WildWeazel]

I don't mind having Elephant and/or Camel UUs, but there will be a couple of generic units with those resources too. Also, I already have a Hussar unit in the lines (Renaissance light cav) but that's for lack of a better generic name.
What is a Pandur?
UUs will not begin Golden Ages, only Armies and wonders do that, so trying to make a GA available early is not a factor here.

[Hikaro Takayama]

WHY?, I repeat, WHY?!?! would ANYONE want an EARLY Golden Age?!?!

Any GA that's obtained before you get ANY other government than despotism is WASTED, IMO (freakin' production penalties anyways!!! Despotism is the WORST government EVER despite what anyone else might say)...

Much better to have one when you've got Communism, or at the very least Democracy (maybe even Republic): It will involve MUCH less waste of the bonus shields and commerce.....

[WildWeazel]

Which is one reason I decided to let the player choose when to have a GA, by using an Army or building wonders. The AI won't have a clue, but it will be much less likely to get one before switching out of Chiefdom (Despotism).
By "early", I meant "before the game has practically been decided"

[Civinator]

Originally Posted by Weasel Op

What is a Pandur?

Pandurs were Croatians or Serbs who had lived under the Turkish/Ottoman empire for 150 years, and just recently got under Austrian control.

[WildWeazel]

Ancient & Classical tech tree (no custom icons yet).

It's a little tight... the techs are "tiered" so it's hard to arrange them otherwise. I have a widescreen monitor so I can stretch them and the background across 1440 pixels, but I'm guessing most people play at the native 1024x768 resolution. (edit: nevermind that, it seems advisor screens are cropped at 1024x768! )

[Virote_Considon]

Looks good so far

For Persia, a good title would be "Shah", or even better, Shahanshah (which means "King of Kings)

[Civinator]

Yes, this is an interesting techtree concerning the used techs. But I´m a little bit confused what can be researched with what tech. For example, is masonry now a starting tech and what can be researched with that tech?

Or is the researching of the techs in rows from the left to the right? In that case may be the screen should be split, graphically in two halves with different background colours: One for the ancient and one colour for the classical subage. So may be you don´t need so much arrows with the small place you have for such a lot of techs.


Virote, "Shahanshah" in my ears sounds like a pop hit of the seventies

[Stormrage]

Sounds like a persian version of Eminem to me

[WildWeazel]

Originally Posted by Civinator

Yes, this is an interesting techtree concerning the used techs. But I´m a little bit confused what can be researched with what tech. For example, is masonry now a starting tech and what can be researched with that tech?

Or is the researching of the techs in rows from the left to the right? In that case may be the screen should be split, graphically in two halves with different background colours: One for the ancient and one colour for the classical subage. So may be you don´t need so much arrows with the small place you have for such a lot of techs.

The ones in the left column have no prerequisites; all others require something from the column before them, usually the nearest 1-2 techs, occasionally others. "Classical Era" requires 4 capstone techs of the (implied) Ancient Era: Monarchy, Construction, Fishing, and Textiles, which in turn collectively require almost all of the Ancient techs. Thus to research "Classical Era" you will have to research all but a few of the Ancient techs, and will then have access to all of the first column of Classical techs.

I would like to rearrange the whole thing, but I don't know how much I could do without making it hard to follow. I may be able to stagger the bigger columns, making each era take up the full width of the screen but only half the height, with Ancient on top and Classical on the bottom:

well, that turned out scarier than the first IMO