Elemental magic

Ahriman · Sep 12, 2008

Some suggestions for starting to fill in the design document:

Elemental magic design:

Elemental casters: (available to all factions that can get elemental magic)

Elementalist: Requires Elemental Magic tech. Strength 4, starts with Channeling 2, gets 1 free promotion.
Can learn fire/water/earth/air/ice magic 1 and 2 (with the appropriate techs).
Upgrades from Hedgewizard. Does not have level requirement, and can be built normally; level requirements like in FFH would mean this unit would never get built.

Elemental master:
Requires a new tech "Elemental mastery". This tech costs at least 2000 beakers (Education should also be raised to 2000 beakers at least), and requires Elemental magic and at least one of the Master of Fire/Water/Earth/Air/Ice techs.
Strength 6, starts with Channeling 3, gets 1 free promotion.
Can learn fire/water/earth/air/ice magic 1 and 2 and 3(with the appropriate techs).

Cathay: Earth and Water
Araby: Air and Fire
Ind: Fire and Earth
Nippon: Water and Air

Ice doesn't feel thematic for any of these - is it important to include? Why not bundle it with water?

Elemental magic needs to be different from Winds magic. Here is one way of doing this.

First, elemental factions don't need a College to build mages. But: you are limited to 6 elementalists and 4 elemental masters of all types.
Second, factions that can get elemental magic only have access to 2 elements, whereas the Empire and high Elves can get all 8 colleges, and many of the other factions should access 3-4 different lores.

Third, elements should be less specialised than lores, but overall weaker than their strengths (and stronger than their weak points.

All Elemental spheres should have a summon, a promotion-giving enchanment and a damage spell of medium strength.

Lore magic should be specialised, each should focus on one or two of Summons, Damage, Buffs, Curses, or Utility/Enchantment. They can have spells that have different effects, but these should be weaker.

So: Lore of Fire can have strong destruction/damage spells, and weak summons and buffs, and no curse spells.
But Master of Fire will have weaker destruction spells, but stronger summons.

Ajidica · Sep 12, 2008

Sounds good. Now Cathay, Ind, Nippon, and Araby would be worth playing.

Psychic_Llamas · Sep 13, 2008

Me said:
Here is my Elemental magic:

WATER

Spoiler :

1. CALL UNDINE:
Description- summons an ‘Undine' unit
CreateUnitType- Undine (2 movement, 2 cold strength, can be ‘sacrificed’ to build a ‘Natural Spring’ feature*. Permanent. only 1 per caster at a time.
iCreateUnitNum- 1
*CreateFeatureType- ‘Natural Spring’ feature. (acts like an oasis on plains and grassland tiles, provides fresh water to surrounding squares cannot be built on fresh water (ie next to rivers))

2. LIQUID BODY:
Description-
Buff Spells
---bBuffCasterOnly
-AddPromotionType1- ‘Liquid Body’, unit can walk on water and is invisible on water tiles and next to rivers. Rivers act a roads. Permanent.

3. LIFE BLOOD:
Description – water, being the life blood of the world, has magical properties that the Water Elementalist is able to unlock, and if used correctly can act as a cure-all. Does not affect deamonic or undead, or other unliving units(ie war machines)
iCombatHealPercent- 35%
RemovePromotionType1- ‘Diseased’

4. SUMMON SEA SERPENT:
Description- summons an ‘Sea Serpent' unit
CreateUnitType- Sea Serpent (3 movement, 4 physical, 2 Poison strength, hidden nationality, +50% vs other sea monsters.
iCreateUnitNum- 1

5. GEYSER:
Description- caster calls up the groundwater and causes a massive eruption of water, throwing units away and damaging them.
-Damage Spell
---iDamage- 30%
---iDamageLimit- 90%
---DamageType- Physical
-enemy stack is scattered randomly on the 9 squares over the geyser.

6. CALL HAIL:
Description- casts this spell on one enemy ranged or siege weapon unit in his line of sight. target stack is caught in a hail storm.
CreateFeatureType- ' Hail Storm' Storm is 9 squares in size (3 x 3) and damages every unit (even allies) under it. (improvement vanishes after 1 turn)
---iDamage- 60%
---iDamageLimit- 70%
---DamageType- cold

7. SUMMON WATER ELEMENTAL:
Description- summons an ‘Water elemental' unit
CreateUnitType- Water elemental (2 movement, 9 cold strength, ‘Liquid Body’, immune to fire and Physical Damage. Can cast ‘Life Blood’.
iCreateUnitNum- 1

8. WATER MASTERY:
Buff Spells
---bBuffCasterOnly
-AddPromotionType1 – ‘Water Mastery’ *
*Water Mastery – (spell benefits only apply to fire spells)
---iSpellDamageModify - +50%
---bTwincast-
--- Spell extension 1 benefits
--- Doubles movement over water, +100% strength on water and next to rivers.

EARTH

Spoiler :

1. CALL GNOME:
Description- summons an ‘Gnome' unit
CreateUnitType- Gnome (1 movement, 3 physical strength, can be ‘sacrificed’ to build a ‘Gnomish Mine’ improvemen*. Permanent. only 1 per caster at a time.
iCreateUnitNum- 1
*CreateImprovementType- ‘Gnomish Mine’ improvement. (only built on mines, replaces mine. +2 hammers, +10% extra chance of discovering new mineral resources.

2. STONE SKIN:
Description-
Buff Spells
-AddPromotionType1- ‘Stone Skin’*
*Stone Skin, double movement in hills and peaks (ignores terrain penaties)
---iImmuneToHits- 1
---Lasts until end of turn.

3. PETRIFY:
Description – the caster petrifies the flesh of the target unit, making them slowly tun to solud rock. Each turn they are damaged, and cannot move, and each turn there is a 20% chance of the spell wearing off.
---iDamage- 15%
---iDamageLimit- 90%
---DamageType- Physical
iImmobileTurns- 1

4. SUMMON MEDUSA:
Description- summons an ‘Medusa' unit
CreateUnitType- Medusa (1 movement, 3 physical and 3 Poison strength, can cast ‘petrify’, City Garrison 1).
iCreateUnitNum- 1

5. BARRAGE:
Description- caster awakens large boulders and hurls them at the enemy. (-able to use to bombard)
-Damage Spell
---iDamage- 30%
---iDamageLimit- 60%
---DamageType- Physical

6. EARTHQUAKE:
Description- the caster causes the convection currents in the mantle to reverse for a time cusing massive earthquakes. (5 x 5 squares in size)
---iDamage- 30%
---iDamageLimit- 90%
---DamageType- physical
iChangePopulation- -20%
(uses graphics from ‘The Old Gods’ scenario)

7. SUMMON EARTH ELEMENTAL:
Description- summons an ‘Earth elemental' unit
CreateUnitType- Earth elemental (1 movement, 10/12 Physical attack/defense, immune to Physical and poison damage.
iCreateUnitNum- 1

8. EARTH MASTERY:
Buff Spells
---bBuffCasterOnly
-AddPromotionType1 – ‘Earth Mastery’ *
*Earth Mastery – (spell benefits only apply to fire spells)
---iSpellDamageModify - +50%
---bTwincast-
--- Spell extension 1 benefits
--- Buff Spells
-AddPromotionType1- ‘petrifying Attack’ (attacks have 15% chance of petrifying opponent)

AIR

Spoiler :

1. CALL SYLPHS:
Description- summons an ‘Sylph' unit
CreateUnitType- Sylph (4 movement, 1 lighting strength, flying, sentry 1 .
iCreateUnitNum- 3

2. WINDS OF HASTE:
Same as FfH Haste and Fair winds spell.

3. WHIRL WIND
Description- Pushes all enemy units within 2 squares of the caster away from the caster 1 square if they aren’t in a city.

4. CHAIN LIGHTNING:
Description- summons a 'Forked Lightning' unit
CreateUnitType- 'Forked Lightning (2 movement, Blitz, 6 lightning strength, lasts 1 turns)
iCreateUnitNum- 3

5.: CLOUD WALKER:
Description –.
Buff Spells
-AddPromotionType1- ‘Cloud Walker’ (flying, +50% withdrawal)

6. POWER SURGE:
Description- the caster sends bolt of electricity from his skin in all directions, any enemy next to him is dealt the following damage:
---iDamage- 33%
---iDamageLimit- 99%
---DamageType- Lightning

7. SUMMON AIR ELEMENTAL:
Description- summons an ‘AIR elemental' unit
CreateUnitType- Air elemental (3 movement, 9 Lightning strength, Flying, immune to lightning and Physical damage. Can cast ‘Whirl Wind’
iCreateUnitNum- 1

8. AIR MASTERY:
Buff Spells
---bBuffCasterOnly
-AddPromotionType1 – ‘Earth Mastery’ *
*Earth Mastery – (spell benefits only apply to fire spells)
---iSpellDamageModify - +50%
---bTwincast-
--- Spell extension 1 benefits
--- Buff Spells
-AddPromotionType1- ‘Storm Attack’ (attacks have 10% chance of casting Power Surge)

FIRE

Spoiler :

1. CALL SALAMANDER:
Description- summons an ‘Salamander' unit
CreateUnitType- Salamander (1 movement, 5 Fire strength, Bombard attack.)
iCreateUnitNum- 1

2. SOUL FLAME:
Buff Spells
-AddPromotionType1 – ‘Free Promotion’ (once per unit only)

3. IMMOLATION
Description-
Buff Spells
-AddPromotionType1 – ‘Immolation,’ Immune to Fire, +2 Fire strength. (33% chance of transferring the ‘Ignited’ promotion to enemies in combat) lasts 1 turn.

4. SUMMON DJINNI:
Description- summons a 'Djinni' unit
CreateUnitType- Djinni (2 movement, 4 Fire strength, starts with ‘Immolation’ promotion)
iCreateUnitNum- 1

5.: DROUGHT:
Description –
CreateFeatureType- grassland –> plains, plains –> desert. Removes forests.
---iDamage- 30%
---iDamageLimit- 60%
---DamageType- Fire

6. HELLFIRE:
Description-
CreateFeatureType- ' Fire Storm' Storm is 9 squares in size (3 x 3) and damages every unit (even allies) under it. (improvement vanishes after 1 turn) ignites forests.
---iDamage- 60%
---iDamageLimit- 90%
---DamageType- Fire

7. SUMMON FIRE ELEMENTAL:
Description- summons an ‘fire elemental' unit
CreateUnitType- Fire elemental (2 movement, 8 Fire strength, starts with ‘Immolation’ promotion. immune to Fire and Physical damage. Lasts 1 turn
iCreateUnitNum- 1

8. FIRE MASTERY:
Buff Spells
---bBuffCasterOnly
-AddPromotionType1 – ‘Fire Mastery’ *
*Fire Mastery – (spell benefits only apply to fire spells)
---iSpellDamageModify - +50%
---bTwincast-
--- Spell extension 1 benefits
--- Buff Spells
-AddPromotionType1- permanent ‘Immolation’
-AddPromotionType2- free promotion

ICE

Spoiler :

1. CALL FROSTLING:
Description- summons an ‘Frostling' unit
CreateUnitType- Frostling (1 movement, 4 cold strength, can spread Tundra).
iCreateUnitNum- 1
*CreateFeatureType- Plains, Grassland – Tundra, Tundra -> Ice.

2. HEART OF ICE:
Description-
Buff Spells
-AddPromotionType1- ‘Heart of Ice’, cold damage heals the unit instead of damages it. Heals 100% faster on tundra and ice. Lasts 1 turn.

3. FROSTBITE:
Description –
Buff Spells
-AddPromotionType1- ‘Frostbite’*
*Frostbite- each turn the unit is damaged, and each turn there is a 33% chance of the spell wearing off.
---iDamage- 25%
---iDamageLimit- 75%
---DamageType- Cold

4. SUMMON NORTHERN LIGHTS:
Description- summons an ‘Northern Lights' unit
CreateUnitType- Northern Lights (2 movement, 4 Cold, 1 Lightning strength, flying )
iCreateUnitNum- 3

5. BREATH OF FROST:
Description-
-Damage Spell
---iDamage- 30%
---iDamageLimit- 90%
---DamageType- Cold, 33 %

6. BLIZZARD:
Description-
CreateFeatureType- ' Blizzard' Blizzard is 9 squares in size (3 x 3) and damages every unit (even allies) under it. (improvement vanishes after 1 turn). 50% chance of turning grasslands, plains to Tundra, or tundra to ice.
---iDamage- 60%
---iDamageLimit- 70%
---DamageType- cold

7. SUMMON FROST DRAGON:
Description- summons an ‘Frost Dragon' unit
CreateUnitType- Frost Dragon (3 movement, 9 cold strength, fire weakness, healed by Cold. Can cast ‘Breath of Frost’ and ‘Frostbite’.
iCreateUnitNum- 1

8. ICE MASTERY:
Buff Spells
---bBuffCasterOnly
-AddPromotionType1 – ‘Ice Mastery’ *
*Water Mastery – (spell benefits only apply to ice spells)
---iSpellDamageModify - +50%
---bTwincast-
--- Spell extension 1 benefits
--- Permanent ‘Heart of ice’ promotion

I had already written up ideas for all the spells for the elemntal spheres, but hadnt thought about the implementation much. i like your idea of limiting the elementalist civs to only a couple of branches. and not having to build a college seems like a good idea too, (though maybe a sepparate, relatively cheap building for each branch which allows the city to build an elementalist of that type would be good...)

Ice is meant for Kislev only, they wont get any other magic.

i have also planned Day and Night magic for Cathay and Nippon in addition to elemental magic:

Here are ideas for Cathay and Nippon Spells:

Spoiler :

Code:

Lore of NIght

1	Darkness Scythes
	Summons 2 'Darkness scythe' units, 2 movement, 2 unholy strength. 
2	Otashi's Weakening
	adds the 'Otashi's Weakening' promotion to the strongest enemy unit adjacent to the caster. -1 strength for 1 turn.
3	Shadows of Death
	Adds the 'Shadows of Death' promotion to a single adjacent enemy. -30% heal rate untill a shrine is viseted.
4	Path of Shades
	adds the 'incorporeal' promotion to the caster. caster may also teleport within 2 tiles.
5	Mist of Horrors
	Adds 'Mist of horrors' feature. requires 3 movement points to enter, damages units which enter it.
6	Assassins Cloak
	adds the 'Assassins Cloak' promotion to all units in the stack: +1 poison strength, recon units target weakest unit.
7	Pact of the Night 
	stack gains hidden nationality for 3 turns
8	Ends of night
	Summons a 'Dimensional Rift' unit: 0 strength, 1 movement, can teleport 4 squares, invisible, cannot be attacked, ignores borders, 3 cargo.

Lore of Day

1	Dayswords
	gifts caster 'dayswords' promo: +2 first strikes to caster. 80% chance of wearing off.
2	Xiao-Ian's Invigoration
	All units in the casters stack get 'Xiao-Ian's Invigoration' promo: +1 strength for 1 turn.
3	Ancestors Courage
	units in casters stack get the 'Ancestors Courage' promotion: Immune to Fear, +1 Exp from combat, +40% vs deamons.
4	Icon of Battle
	Summons an 'Icon of Battle' Unit: 1 move, 6 Holy strength, causes Fear. 
5	Bane of Cowards
	grants all units in the casters stack the 'Bane of Cowards' promo: +40% vs archer, 50% less collateral damage, 20% magic resistance.
6	Emperors Blessing 
	gives Regeneration to all friendly units in a 1 tile radius
7	Divine Banishment
	all deamons, undead and summoned units in all adgacent tiles are teleported back to their capital, or if they are barbarian, pushed 2 squares away. may be resisted.
8	Incarnation of War
	Caster gets 'Incarnation of War' promotion 50% chance of wearing off each turn: Cause Fear, Crown of Radiance effect.

Tell me what you think of these spells

theyre by no means set in concrete yet (havent coded them at all)

Ahriman · Sep 13, 2008

I'd forgotten about Kislev, Ice makes sense for them.

(though maybe a sepparate, relatively cheap building for each branch which allows the city to build an elementalist of that type would be good...)

Like a FFH Mage guild? Yeah, that works well. Good call.

As for Nippon and Cathay; why do they need extra separate magic, different from the Elemental magic? I'm guessing you have fluff-related reasons for doing this (but it looks like they have elemental magic too?), but too many different magic types can be unncessarily confusing (and can clutter the tech tree).

I'd probably recommend just taking a handful of these spells and giving them to some Cathay/Nippon UUs and heroes, rather than creating separate magic schools.

As for the elemental magic; damage spells still do too much damage (so do the current Lore spells).
Djinni also are in my suggestions for Araby buildable units, so me might need to change names. Also, Djinn and Efreet are singular, Djinni and Efreeti are plural. Djinn are typically associated with air, Efreet with fire, at least in modern fantasy.
Otherwise look good.

Psychic_Llamas · Sep 13, 2008

in regards to my reasoning with the lores of day and night for cathay and nippon:

(CHECK OUT THIS) scroll down to the end where you will find details on cathay magic...

a simple change to 'summon efreet' for the djinn spell would suffice then

and yes, i horrible with damage balancing on these spells, just general ideas which need severe tweeking

my orriginal thought in regards to elementalism was:

Araby, Ind, Kislev and Nippon would use elementalism.

Cathay would use their civ specific Night/Day magic

Ahriman · Sep 13, 2008

a simple change to 'summon efreet' for the djinn spell would suffice then

Efreeti are also buildable Araby units in my suggestions :-)

This is the Arabian nights, after all (with crusades!).

I took a bunch of unit ideas and mechanics from that Cathay book, but I figured easier to leave the magic alone. I also like 4 factions each using 2/4 main elements, meaning each element is used twice. Feels balanced - good feng shui.

Psychic_Llamas · Sep 14, 2008

I took a bunch of unit ideas and mechanics from that Cathay book, but I figured easier to leave the magic alone. I also like 4 factions each using 2/4 main elements, meaning each element is used twice. Feels balanced - good feng shui.

hahaha true! though i think ill keep day and night for cathay as well

i have some interesting mechanics floationg around my head for it but it needs more time toe brew

Ahriman · Sep 14, 2008

I would advise against "over-magicing" factions. I know you love magic, but even in Warhammer tabletop magic is at best a supporting function. The mod should still be about armies clashing on the field; there should only be a handful of magic-casting units for each faction.

Also, given that the AI is never going to use magic as intelligently as a human, making magic too prevalent will just make the AI too weak relative to the player, and remove much of the challenge of the game.

Psychic_Llamas · Sep 14, 2008

yeh your right again of course. perhaps give cathay an option to go down elemental or day night. if they choose one tech it obsoletes the other. add a bit of variety to cathay...

Ajidica · Sep 14, 2008

Does day/night magic even need to be implemeted? From what I can tell of WHFB backstory, it is primarily focused in 'Europe' in the map. Almost everything west of the greenskins is fan created stuff. I would also advise agianst adding too much magic. The magic tree is already too confusing for players who just came from the crisp and clean FfH tree.

Psychic_Llamas · Sep 14, 2008

From what I can tell of WHFB backstory, it is primarily focused in 'Europe' in the map. Almost everything west of the greenskins is fan created stuff.

the WH mod for civ is a LOT of fan made stuff

more than half of it is non cannon stuff , indeed half the civs arnt true cannon stuff (cathay, hobgoblins, amazonians, Ind, etc)

its not really too much. Cathay would only have access to 4 branches of magic, whereas Empire has access to 8, and Highelves 9 (!) day and night magic would never be used by anyone other than cathay. initially i thought about simply allowing cathay to use the hysh and Ulgu magics from the 8 winds of magic, but they didnt fit the fluff at all. same names (light/day, shadow/night), different theme.

Ahriman · Sep 14, 2008

I would definitely support an Old world map of some type; if only for system requirement purposes. Many people's comps can't really handle more than standard maps, and struggle with large. Huge crawls.

Mine certainly struggles a great deal with the Warhammer World map.

Plus, thats where most of the interesting action is going to happen. Other factions just aren't close enough that wars are going to be interesting.

Psychic_Llamas · Sep 14, 2008

i think i made a half finished old world map ages ago, i need to finish it... it was huge though, ill have to make a standard sized one i think

Ahriman · Sep 14, 2008

You can/should take some liberties with geography to make sure that fringe nations of an old world map have good enough terrain to be a real contender; Bretonnia needs to actually be afraid of Norsca invasions, and the Empire of Sylvania and Kislev of Kurgan. Need to make sure that Law and Chaos are fairly balanced.

I'd say a standard size map, nearly all land, could easily encompass:
Law: Bretonnia, Kislev, Empire, Estalia, Tilea, Wood Elf, Araby
Neutral: Ork, Goblin.
Chaos: Norsca, Kurgan, Khemri, Sylvania, Skaven?, Chaos Dwarf?, Lamia?

16 factions is still really pushing it as far as system resources go.

Psychic_Llamas · Dec 2, 2008

ive added in 4 elemental colleges, but im tempted to make them wonders gained at Elemental mastery instead, and have minor buildings like Mage guilds buildable in each city.
i think a 'Sanctum of the Elements' or some such has a nice name

buildable at elemental magic.

ive also added all the elementalist casters, but im getting Instant CTDs the turn after the Water Initiate (teir 1 water caster) is built. i have a feeling it could be to do with the spells ive started to implement. (only done call Undine so far but cant test it due to the CTDs.) once i figue out the cause of these CTDs it should be very fast to finish the rest of Elementalism.

Ahriman · Dec 2, 2008

I thought that one of the main points of differentiation was that elemental magic didn't NEED colleges. They learn their magic from the world, not from written scrolls and tomes and lessons. So they just use covens for building their units.
Otherwise they're too much the same as Winds magics.

If we're going with this proposal, which I like:
Cathay: Earth and Water
Araby: Air and Fire
Ind: Fire and Earth
Nippon: Water and Air

then there is no reason to not just make the appropriate elementalists buildable units for each faction.
Much better for the AI to use.

I'm fine with splitting them into water mage, fire mage etc though, but there should probably be a single elemental master that all the mages can upgrade into.

The way I would do it is:
Standard hedgewizards buildable at raw magic.
These guys can learn water magic 1, fire magic 1 etc just from the appropriate tech.

Water mage buildable at water magic tech; starts with water1 and water 2 and channeling 2.
Elemental master, upgrades from any of the 4 elemental mages, starts with channeling 3 and gets a free promotion (we don't want to tie it into any particular element, so they need the free promotion to get the 3rd slot).

once i figue out the cause of these CTDs it should be very fast to finish the rest of Elementalism

Awesome.

Psychic_Llamas · Dec 2, 2008

good idea with the single elemental master, i think itll fix my issue as well.

and yeh ive made a coven replacement 'Elemental Sanctum' for elementalist civs, with an 'initiate' hedgewizard replacement.

If we're going with this proposal, which I like:
Cathay: Earth and Water
Araby: Air and Fire
Ind: Fire and Earth
Nippon: Water and Air

and yep, definately going with this.

Ahriman · Dec 2, 2008

This sounds good. I still see no need for colleges though; they feel out of flavor.

Elemental mages can get their archmages without ever having to pursue the education tech line or build colleges.

Arexack_heretic · Dec 2, 2008

A tower of the elements world wonder, that allows the building of all types of elementalist
(or the study and use of all elements by own casters)
available only to civs with access to elemental mastery.

Ahriman · Dec 2, 2008

A tower of the elements world wonder, that allows the building of all types of elementalist
(or the study and use of all elements by own casters)
available only to civs with access to elemental mastery.

This might be a bit messed up with unit caps.
If you can set group unit caps for all 4 elementalist types, then this could work.
If not, a wonder that lets you double your number of mages would be a problem.

Note that it would still not let you get the 3rd level of magic, because the promotions require the techs, which you still wouldn't be able to research. Which is fine; some extra flexibility in mages, but not for archmages.

Elemental magic

Tyrant

High Quality Person

Wizard in the Making

Tyrant

Wizard in the Making

Tyrant

Wizard in the Making

Tyrant

Wizard in the Making

High Quality Person

Wizard in the Making

Tyrant

Wizard in the Making

Tyrant

Wizard in the Making

Tyrant

Wizard in the Making

Tyrant

Emperor

Tyrant

Similar threads