Question about the Bannor

I'm trying to put together the background storyline for a new Unique Feature I have in mind for Fall Further ( just an idea of course, I don't have the skills to do it myself ) , and I'm having some trouble. Basically, I'd like to know if the Bannor are a new civilization ( i.e. spawned during the Age of Rebirth, which is the one you're playing in FFH2 , right? ) , or if they were around during the old age of magic before the age of ice. I actually hope it's the latter, it would make things way easier for me thanx in advance for the support

It depends how you define the Bannor.

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=bannor+bhall+site:civfanatics.com&btnG=Search

especially

http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-279016.html

They are very very interesting. Became rigid in order (akk pun) to survive the march through hell.

uh, not sure what that means I want to know if there was any Bannor/Bannor-esque civilization ( i.e. obsessed with law and order ) in one of Erebus' past eras, cuz they would be the guys responsible for building the unique feature I'm thinking about

The Bannor existed pre-Age of Ice in some state ,not sure of what they called themselves. The spent the entire Age of Ice fighting to get out of Hell which caused them to form the rigid social-military system they have now in order to survive Hell. So I'm sure during the Age of Magic they were similar to what they are now but not as extreme.

ah, that's a good one avalonnn, thanx. Kael posted exactly what I needed lore-wise...

"They were extremly anti-magic. In that time most of the mages were evil, certainly the most powerful ones, and the path to magic was easier for those willing to serve demons and evil gods. The bannor had little tolerance for those that dabbled in the occult, and didn't trust the stories of "good magic" (believing it just another path that would always lead to darker powers). Many people were purged by fire and they were the greatest enemy of the evil archmages that survived kylorins rebellion."

thanx everybody for the help

My belief is that before Bhall's fall, the Bannor were very much like they are in the game now. Their little vacation to Hell just emphazed some of their traits - like being judgemental, crusading, ordered, etc. However, their extremely centralized government is new.

Think of it this way: before the Fall, the Bannor were Roman (We have great armies, and great dedication. Prepare to be annexed into our happy empire). After the fall, they were Spartan (Tonight - and every night - we dine... IN HELL!!!! AAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!! - Prepare to be annexed into our dinner party).

The Bannor were the largest and strongest empire formed from the factions of the Patrian civil war. They were somewhat law-oriented, but their sphere was Fire. They were loyal followers of the holy goddess Bhall, and they passionately spread her purifying flames to cleanse the land of evil. At the time fire was a holy weapon, and it was by (mostly Bannor) fire that nearly every evil sorcerer was slain. Before her fall, Bhall and Junil were extremely close, and there were many worshipers of Junil in the Bannor capital.


Two civilizations of the Age of Rebirth are descendants of the Bannor of the Age of Magic: The Bannor (obviously) and the Clan of Embers. While the Clan is made of corrupted men, elves, dwarves, and maybe even aifons of nearly all nations (all devoted to Bhall, who was the most revered in all empires), their core population and their leaders are all of Bannor descent. The Orks didn't invade the land around Braduk (the Burning), they have dwelt there sine time immemorial.

When Bhall fell she literally fell through creation, at the point of her holy city, the Bannor Capitol of Braduk. Many were killed in the process, but a fraction of the population were dragged alive into Agares' hell along with her. These few remained holy and continued to embody her original sphere, but also increasingly relied on the teachings of Junil (Junils priests were among them) and impressed Junil so much that he sent his Archangel, Sabathiel, to guide them out of hell. Under his leadership they grew even tougher and wrote strict,unbreakable laws because of necessity. I hell, your physical form is a reflection of the spirit. Children who maintain their innocence never grow up, and no one grows old or decrepit so long as he/she remains pure. Discipline was essential to survival, as those who allowed any moral failings were quickly overcome by these, deteriorated, and became easy prey for hoards of demons. The Bannor who escaped centuries in Hell (passing from hell back into creation though a passage in the Eternal Flame which still burns in the heart of the crater formed by Bhall's fall) were tougher than the Bannor of the earlier age, but were the same in essence. Most of the Bannor of the latter Age of Rebirth (when it had again become an empire instead of a dedicated band of heroes struggling to rebuild civilization) were lesser men, who had been conquered and civilized by the Bannor Crusades. They increasingly lacked the passion and direction of their ancestors, and their unquestioning obedience led to the rise of a corrupt fascist state when evil priests took control and chose to ignore Sabathiel and hunt down all true followers of Junil.


The Bannor who did not physically fall with their mistress fell spiritually, mentally, and physiologically. Bhall realigned herself with Camulos instead of Junil, so her followers of Erebus maintained their violent passion but lost direction, becoming the most chaotic of barbarians. The holy scepter of the high priestess of Bhall was made into an axe that would later be used by Orthus.

wow, that's a very good explanation, thanx Magister the only thing that stills confuses me is the order in which the ages come - what I understand now is:

1) Patria

2) Age of Magic

3) Bhall's Fall ( from Heaven ) ---> Age of Ice

4) Age of Rebirth ( which is the one you play in FFH2 )

is this correct?

Yes, as far as that goes, since there was also the Age of Dragons/God War before Patria.
I can't rememder if their were any other ages.

After creation, there was a long time and peaceful time before the rebellion of Agares was discovered, when The One visited earth and the true heaven was not closed. This isn't usually counted as an age though. When Agares rebellion was discovered, everyone fell from Heaven and heaven was closed off until one day in the future when creation could be cleansed enough of the corruption for the One to return without destroying everything with his holyness (or, as Agares hopes, for the One to give up on this and return destroying everything, and proving himself to be no better than agares.) He tasked the good gods to protect humanity and help lead creation towards this enlightenment. Soon open war broke out, The Godswar.

The Godswar raged throughout what came to be known as the Age of Dragons, which is usually counted as the first age. The name of course comes from the dragons that were the strongest weapons the gods created to fight amongst themselves. These were far from the only weapons they created though. All true angels and demons (excluding the gods themselves, and those humans who would later become minor angels/demons) were also created for the godswar.


The second Age was the Age of Magic, which began with the signing of the compact and the ending of the Godswar. For the first time humanity was free from the hardships of the direct conflicts between the gods, so this is when the intelligent races (humans and the Elves and Aifons, who were descended from humans (who in turn as the children of Nemed, the god of life who gave up his godhood to create us) who spent their lives in the presence of the pacifistic gods Sucellus and Danalin ahd had their natures changed by this presence) were able to become civilized. Minor Kingdoms arose in this time of relative peace. (I'm not sure if it was one of these kings or maybe Kyorlin himself who commissioned the statue by Keldon Ki, and imprisoned him because it captured the very essence of his arrogance for all to see. Keldon lived out the rest of his life in prison, creating little statues to keep him comfort. When granted one wish by Kilmorph, he asked to have them given life. This is how Dwarves are said to have been created, although I personally prefer to think it is just a myth as it would seem to indicate that Dwarves don't have souls/divine sparkss like the descendants of Nemed do.) Eventually, one king managed to unite all of these kingdoms into one empire: Patria. This man was Kyorlin. He ruled wisely at first, but after he caught his wife in bed with another man, he attempted to kill himself my jumping off the highest tower in his palace, but was stopped by Ceridwen. She convinced him that there was a better way--to bind Eve's soul to this world so she would forever return in a new, equally beautiful, untainted body every generation, and give him eternal youth so her could enjoy her every time. He agreed, in exchange for worshiping Ceridwen and ruling as she would like. She taught Kyorlin magic, making him the first archmage. (Some men had used magic before, unknowingly, but this was only minor shamanism, not nearly on the level of Kyorlin's power.) He went on to teach 21 students to be masters of each of the 21 spheres of magic, and they went on to teach there own students too. Sorcerers took all the positions of power in the empire, and become extremely corrupted by this power. They performed the most horrible experiments in history, rivaling even the godswar. Pit beasts, Manticores, Griffons, Centaurs, Lamia, etc., were all created in such experiments, some of which were on humans and so some of these creatures have souls/divine sparks. Kyorlin was the worst among them. After many failed relationships with his reincarnated wife (I think it is implied that some of these were rape than relationships), he began to see the monster that he had become. He led a rebellion against his own rule, and his empire descended into chaos. Eventually, it split into 9 (? this number has changed occasionally) factions, some good, some evil. These kingdoms eternally warred against each other for the rest of the age. Late in the Age of Magic, The Bannor had emerged as nearly a superpower, and it seemed that good was about to triumph. Then Agares' began to play off of Bhall's pride, and convinced her to fall.

Before Bhall had fallen, Mulcarn and Agares were already plotting. Without his old enemy Bhall to stop him, Mulcarn would be unopposed. Soon after the fire-rain, The Illians completed a ritual found long ago by the Aifon Trento Majosi and Mulcarn was able to raise his palace on Mount Mulyr into creation. The Luchuirp almost stopped the ritual, but were too late. Succellus was chosent o intervent, but while trying to defeat the Taranis the Unchanging (whose unchanging nature made him immune to injury), Sucellus was taken by surprise and split into pieces. Thus began the Age of Ice.


As you know, the Age of Ice ended when Kyorlin and the Amurites (whom he joined only because his wife Eve, now called Epona, was among them) found the pieces of the Godslayer (the symbol of the compact) and killed Mulcarn (although his spirit escaped and would eventually be reincarnated as the human boy Auric Ulvin).

The Age of Rebirth did not properly begin until the resurrection of Sucellus. It is the current age.

cool, awesome post thanx again Magister. now I know a lot above FFH lore ( ), and I have to say it's very very interesting indeed. it's definitely worth reading. btw, the idea I had in mind is posted now: here it is http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=293267 in case everyone is curious about it. feedback is very welcome.

Let's see if I can remember this....

After Patria's fall, the major empires were:

The Bannor (perhaps the original heirs of Kylorin/Patria?)
The Malakim (without our friend Varn, a group of competing tribes with the same lifestyle)
The Balseraphs (although not as big on the world stage, perhaps)
The Calabim (without vampires? As what, though?)
The Lanun (basically unchanged, although competing with Aifon)
The Illians (although they weren't as strong then)
The Hippus (as several tribes, not united - like the Malakim)
The Elohim (although they were more like a religious group with individual nationalies, like the Knights Templar)
The Grigori (unchanged)
The Kuriotates (I think, but without Cardith?)

Along with the Aifon (who eventually died), the Dwarves (united above and below ground), and the Elves (who fell into cival war).

So, we have basically one major [human] empire, two or three known minor kingdoms, several "peoples", a knightly/monkly group, three other united species, and a question mark or two. Quite a change, hmmmm?



So, to get out current civ list, we have:
The Amurites (thanks, Kylorin!)
The Doviello (made up of smaller nations and scattered remnants)
The Sheaim (again, scattered remnants united under determined leaders)
The Clan of Embers (Bhall's fault, really)
The Sidar (not as sure about this one)
The obvious Mercurians and Infernal
The Luichirp (who were unwillingly split from the original Dwarven people)
The Svartalfar/Ljolsofar (the civil war never really ended)
The Khazad (who are really another split group of dwarves, there is an unharmed large kingdom underground)


.... to get 21.


Although those two at the top bother me a bit... what were the Kurios and Calabim before the Age of Ice?

Alexis and Flauros are immortal, so they ruled a primeval form of the Calabim. I imagine it is not the exact same nation, but the concept is the same. I doubt they were quite as open about their secret then, as fewer evil nations existed (Just the Illians, Dark Elves, and Balseraphs).

In the civilopedia it reads the Kuriorates were on the outskirts of the human nations, and were watched over by agreat power. This power is probably Eubrates, still searching for an unblemished soul to inhabit. I think they would simply be a more decentralized version of AoR Kuriorates.

IIRC, the Calabim became what they are today because the vampires gained power during the Age of Ice - they were able to help others survive, and by doing so, squirmed their way into a feudal dictatorship/feast.

You might be right on the Kurios, though - Cardith/Eurabatres may have been around back then. I don't think Eurabatres was able to influence the world without having phsical form, though.

Kuriotates are a new civ in the Age of Rebirth. At one point they were in the Age of Magic but MC commented that it was more interesting if they are a new civ and he was right so we changed them.

The Luchuirp were around before the Age of Ice as distinct from the Dwarves. There is an extensive history document in the Game Concepts section of the civlopedia that spells out much of what Magister recounted.
Several civs got an expanded history section in their Civilizations pedia section as well, Clan, Lanun, Hippus especially. Check it out if you haven't, they build on the Age of Magic subtly.

civilopedia said:

The war splinters the empire with Kylorin leading good religious forces against the creations and unholy magic of the sorcerers. By the end 9 human nations have been formed;
the Elohim keepers of memories and guardians of the sacred parts of the world;
the Bannor, keepers of the sacred fire and the greatest enemies of the sorcerers;
the Malakim, desert nomads and men of faith;
the Lanun, traders and seamen;
the Hippus; horse lords and mercenary's;
the Grigori, followers of Cassiel;
the Balseraphs, lead by the sorcerer Perpentach;
the Illians, who dwelt in the tundra and ravaged lands;
and the Calabim, who became ruled by Alexis and Flauros.

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The Kuriotates were removed from the list after I pointed out how inappropriate it was for the civ that represents fresh new birth to be one of the oldest civs. It never was supposed to be around before Cardith Lorda, but since Cardith stopped stopped aging when he merged with Eurabatres he was supposed to have been around for a long time.


I've been trying to convince him to remove other civs from this list too, because I really don't think most of them fir very well and because some seem to conflict somewhat with other entries. While a few of them definitely should be the same, I think most of the civilizations should have disappeared completely. I think these should include the Thraxian civilization, which is referenced in AoI.



The Elohim have been around since Immanual Logos founded the Orer of the Elohim in the Age of Dragons, and it makes sense enough for the nation to have grown around them when Patria fell.

The Bannor were obviously around during the Patrian civil war,as they were the dominant faction. Given their dislike of magic, I don't think that they would have been founded by Kyorlin or be the main heirs of Patria. Well, I guess they could have come from those Kyorlin first led into rebellion against his earlier corrupt regime, but I don't think he could really control their passion and they would probably still oppose him for using magic. They may very well control much Patrian territory, but this is from conquest.


I don't really like to think of the Malakim, Lanun, or Hippus as being major civilizations. I prefer to have them be descended from several unrelated tribes of remnants of other kingdoms, although they may very well like to believe themselves to be the heirs of great empires.



We do know that Cassiel was the greatest and most revered philosopher among the Patrians (who were more philosophical than religious), but I'm not sure I like them being one of the factions. Cassiel is quite unpractical (as the fortuneteller in AoI), so I don't think his followers would fare well. After all, at the time, goodly priests where just about the only ones who could defend people from sorcerers.



Perpentach was the strongest of Kyorlin's students. (He almost defeated his master. I personally like to think that he did defeat Kyorlin but that the copy of Kyorlin inside his mind broke down his mental barriers to drive him insane, and that the real Kyorlin has no idea how he managed to win.) Naturally, he would have been a major character in the Patrian civil war. I'd prefer not to call these the Balseraphs though, as they would have little in common with the Balseraphs in the Age of Rebirth; The carnival theme did not exist until the already mad Perpentach escaped the Tower of Eyes through the aide of a troupe of traveling carnies. Perpentach was not yet insane, or rather the mental barriers Kyorlin had helped him create still held so he was not suffering (or enjoying ) multiple personality disorder. He was described as being the most wicked of the sorcerers, so AoM Balseraphs would likely seem more like the Sheaim. I imagine that this is the actual heir of the corrupt patrian empire, and that many of the sorcerers were loyal to Perpentach the Cassawallen.



Obviously, the Illians were around in the Age of Magic, and were the weakest, most backward civilization. They are the ones who ended the age by summoning Mulcarn.


We know from other entries that the Calabim were one of many scattered tribes in the Age of Ice, and that Flauros and Alexis found them and adopted the tribe. At first this benefited the humans the most, since vampires are stronger and have superior senses and thus were the best hunters, and they demanded only a little blood every once in a while. Of course, vampires greatest power is their intellect, so this was part of a carefully crafted plan to turn the tribe into chattel. Alexis and Flauros date back to the Age of Dragons, so it would make sense for them to have made themselves despots in the past. Kael has said that he likes to think of them as having led an Egypt-like civ in the past, at which time they would have been in conflict with the Malakim, even though they are in a more Black Forest-type clime now. As such, I'll say that there have been several Calabim civs, which share nothing in common but their brutal rulers. I like to think that in each case the people eventually rebelled and overturned the vampires overlords, and were then completely wiped out so that no one would learn of their cruelty and so they could start all over again.





In general, I'd also prefer that the civilizations have older names even if they are essentially the same. For instance, I much prefer that the Age of Magic Luchuirp be referred to as the Khrad'Ke-zun. The Luchuirp are merely one of several tribes that were united in this empire--the one tribe that survived.

In general, I'd also prefer that the civilizations have older names even if they are essentially the same. For instance, I much prefer that the Age of Magic Luchuirp be referred to as the Khrad'Ke-zun. The Luchuirp are merely one of several tribes that were united in this empire--the one tribe that survived.

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I certainly think that would be/is realistically the case, but it would only add confusion to add and use another name for all these people groups.

Perpentach was the strongest of Kyorlin's students. (He almost defeated his master. I personally like to think that he did defeat Kyorlin but that the copy of Kyorlin inside his mind broke down his mental barriers to drive him insane, and that the real Kyorlin has no idea how he managed to win.) Naturally, he would have been a major character in the Patrian civil war. I'd prefer not to call these the Balseraphs though, as they would have little in common with the Balseraphs in the Age of Rebirth; The carnival theme did not exist until the already mad Perpentach escaped the Tower of Eyes through the aide of a troupe of traveling carnies. Perpentach was not yet insane, or rather the mental barriers Kyorlin had helped him create still held so he was not suffering (or enjoying ) multiple personality disorder. He was described as being the most wicked of the sorcerers, so AoM Balseraphs would likely seem more like the Sheaim. I imagine that this is the actual heir of the corrupt patrian empire, and that many of the sorcerers were loyal to Perpentach the Cassawallen.

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How I was picturing it was that Kylorin and Perpentach battled very shortly after the Patrian upheaval (some undefined moment of rebellion by K's students after his change of heart). Perp was locked away in the tower, and Kylorin went on with his buisiness of cleaning up his empire (destroying it in the process). Perp was returned to insanity (ie. being unable to discern reality from his mind) in the process of fight, as you said he would likely have been triumphant if not for this 'dirty' tactic of K's. The circus people were the first minds he took over in his escape, and the in the Mommus was the longest his mind had been in anothers. This is where the Carnival comes from. So even in the Age of Magic, the tail end, anyway, they had a circus theme, but muted as Perp was still hiding from Kylorin.

Kael has said that he likes to think of them as having led an Egypt-like civ in the past, at which time they would have been in conflict with the Malakim, even though they are in a more Black Forest-type clime now.

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I don't think it's been established that they live in a transylvanian climate, I think that's just an assumption, though an understandable one. Here's how I envision it:

Nikis-Knight said:

I don't think it's been established that they live in a transylvanian climate, I think that's just an assumption, though an understandable one. Here's how I envision it:
View attachment 190048

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You're such a tease