Lonely Hearts Club, BtS Edition, Chapter XXX : Pacal

r_rolo1

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Welcome to the 30th edition of the Lonely Hearts Club for BTS. In the Lonely Hearts Club we explore strategies to cope with one of the most dreaded situations in Civ IV ( possibly the main reason for reloads after the military collapse one :p ): starting in isolation....

For the 30th game in BTS the choosed leader was Pacal II of the Mayan:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0026.jpg


Civ4ScreenShot0025.jpg

Well, one of the new boys of BtS. Pacal adds to the number of Fin civs that the game has, and given his traits ( Fin/Exp ), it is a very solid leader by it self ( Exp is a very solid trait IMHO, and I think that it is very underestimated.... the ultimate punch line in Civ IV SGs is "We need more workers" ( there are not much parts of the game where you have more than enough workers and in certain times of the game having that crucial worker is a gamechanger ) and anything that helps getting them earlier is a good thing )..... and if you add to it a UB that gives extra :) and a very solid and early UU ( the nemesis of MP duel games along with quechuas , atleast in the first months of BtS ;) ), we have a very solid civ package to play with, and I really doubt that isolation will be a chalenge for it.

His UU
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0027.jpg

The Holkan...... One very solid UU IMHO. the fact that it is resource-free ( in spite of needing hunting and BW as every spear in the game ) makes him a very solid early asset ( pretty much in the line of the Incan UU ), as in early choker ( his imunity to first strikes make him pretty much immune to archers in the open ) and anti barb actions ( atleast until axes :( )

In here... well, same old, same old: early UU do not shine a lot in isolation ( besides fast worker ;) )

His UB
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0028.jpg

Nothing like a UB that gives extra :), regardless of what economy you're using ( :) is power ;) ). And in that regard having the Mayan UU, a beefed colosseum that gives 3 base :) instead of 1 , is a certain helper, especially in happy constrained enviroments as isolated stars use to be

The start (for reasons that I'll explain below, the warrior may not be exactly in that spot in your game ):
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0024.jpg

Interesting start.... cows, corn, stone, coastal ( with no seafood ), river 1 tile away..... I wonder how this will unfold.

Regarding the saves: given some complaints about the efects of the AI starting without archery in high levels ( giving a unfair advantage to AI that have early UU and/or have early warmongering tendencies ), I decided to make 3 WB saves ( all in the same zip file ). The WB saves are equal except for the fact that one of them ( labeled Monarch ) has all of the AI with archery as starting tech ( corresponding to a game started in Monarch ), one ( labeled Immortal ) has all of the AI with archery,hunting and agriculture as starting tech ( corresponding to a game started in Immortal ) while the last is the corresponding to a game starting in Noble ( labeled Noble ). All WB saves are playable in all levels, but ( for a example ) if you use the Monarch one the AI will start with archery ( and archers ) in any level. This has only a slight effect in the human directly ( mainly via the garrisons of barb cities ), but has a huge effect on the AI gaming in the outer lands ( avoiding scenarios like Pacal, Shaka or Sitting Bull to take all the barb cities and becoming moguls ). I strongly recommend the usage of the Monarch save if you want to play in Monarch+ and the Immortal at Immortal/Deity.... All the speeds are working well ( no more games ending in 1900 ) The saves are zipped... you only have to unzip this to the worldbuilder saves or for the PublicMaps folder ( either one will do ) and load it from the scenarios.
Any problem PM me...

P.S WB saves are crosscompatible between 3.13 and 3.17 if they don't have No Espionage ticked. No problem with the patches here :p

Again a small request ( not mandatory :p ) :

We ask the participants to do, if possible, a write-up with the victory save and a description of your game ( strategies, techs researched, wars,...). All the info should be in spoiler tags ( to not disturb other people's games ). If you want ( we would like to :p ) post reports at this moments of the game:

Checkpoint 1 - when we have explored the island and are aware of what resources it has. Its not so important when this is, but this is a time to discuss city sites etc. Don't look into a checkpoint 1 spoiler until you have reached this point yourself.

Checkpoint 2 - first contact - when we have met all the other AIs. At this point we can discuss our strategy to get to this point and our plans for dealing with them.

Checkpoint 3 - when we are committed to a victory condition (or at least think we are).

Checkpoint 4 - Victory (or defeat).


The last words are to wish good luck to all :goodjob: . And let the games begin!



P.S We don't have any kind of problem with defeats and reruns. Just play and enjoy ;)
 

Attachments

might take a go at this one on Prince
 
Signing in. Looks like another settle in place for me. I don't see anyway to get both cow and corn and improve the position otherwise. Maybe a different warrior location will change my mind though.

Ball court is MONEY. Little less synergy here where we obviously don't have the opportunity for a normal catapult war, but it remains one of the best :) buildings in the game.
 
Emp/normal to 50 AD

Spoiler :
A lot of deliberation on city sites in this one.

I settled in place, teched AG, AH, masonry, and whored out all 3 early stone wonders (henge, GW, then settled 2 more cities then mids). I'm in representation which with the ball court and several :) resources on the island should prove very nice.

GP farm has become my capitol with wonders - don't much care what GP they are. Unfortunately I got a bad draw twice and got great spies although they're still ok settled under rep and will give me an espionage edge later.

With wonderspam in the capitol (recently picked up hanging gardens also, and you can see I'm going for chichen itza), the rest of the cities are working cottages or gems mostly.

I'll likely wind up packing cities somewhat tight and just throwing cottages around. After CS I am going for literature and then construction then optics. I've got a pretty strong tech rate going here so looking good for the moment.

50adempire0000.jpg


50adremainingland0000.jpg


Edit: I lost this and every other save file I had, so I will have to start over which sucks because this was a very nice opening. Regardless, I may get back to this eventually.
 
Monarch/Epic 4000BC-1160AD

Spoiler :
This is my first 'real' monarch game as I'm normally Noble/Prince. I started Ag/AH/BW/... Built usual stone wonders SH/GW/HG/bulbed GL with a GE I had. I missed Conf by 3 turns, missed Toaism by 3. Met everyone and I'm 3rd in points. I'm starting to ramp up military. Got 7 cities settled, and I'm going to try to get Liberalism first.
Cities South
civ4screenshot0004ae9.jpg

North
civ4screenshot0005cl8.jpg

Techs
civ4screenshot0006xc2.jpg

Demographics needs improvements
civ4screenshot0007td5.jpg


Can anyone give me some pointers. I'm looking towards space maybe diplomatic, just have to play through a little more.
cripp
 
Prince/Normal through 425AD. Is there some way to spoiler attachments? I can't access most free imagehosting (filters keep me off it).

Spoiler :


I've settled all my major cities and will possibly fill in one or two more that will just churn out units. I think I've placed some decent cities but I could have rearranged to get 2 more that had access to food resources instead of ones that will rely on grassland farms.

The deserts really messed up my placement ideas, in hindsight I should have settled a couple with some desert tiles to spread better.

Anyway, I've decided to go a mix of Specialist and Religious Economy, having just founded Confucianism pretty late, I think I might have the inside track to the AP (Christianity is still not founded) and UoS as I will go for Theo then Paper, then backfill some techs.

Tech order:
AG>Animal Husbandry>BW>Hunting>Wheel>IW>Fishing>Sailing>Pottery>Writing>Masonry>Math> Calendar>Code of Laws> Aesthetics> Poly>Lit>CS (researching).

I should have put off Aesthetics and Lit, I was thinking of building the Great Library but I am not ready to now and would have benefitted more from CS first to go Bureaucracy.

I completed the Great Lighthouse in 550BC and The 'Mids in 175AD.

First GP was a Merchant, who I chose to settle in Chichen Itza which I plan to be my commerce city. Yes, it suffers from some mountains but I can worry about that later.

A GG was born in 275AD, so there's war going on somewhere.

I am first in GNP and Pop with nearly double the highest AI, second in food and land (and extremely close in those). I feel good despite my mistakes. Tying myself to Confucianism so tightly by planning the RE will be dangerous once I make contact. I am hoping the war going on elsewhere is religious which might give me the chance to tech peacefully and maybe gain favor despite religious differences.

My long term goal will be to go for the Space Race, I don't have the production to plan for major invasions now. I will probably have to hope I can either find uninhabited land or invade someone to gain more production if I want to win in good time.

 

Attachments

Hi everyone, first game on the forum! I will give this a go in Emperor/Marathon
Spoiler Checkpoint one to 1520 BC :
I settled in place, even without fresh water (got the health event so that makes up for it). Stone + isolation mean lot of wonders…
Civ4ScreenShot0062.jpg

Techpath was: agriculture, masonry, the wheel, hunting, bronze working, animal husbandry, fishing, iron working, basically worker techs…
Mutal builds: worker, warrior, warrior, stonehenge, warrior, the great wall, settler (partial build), holkan, holkan (chop in mids), worker, settler, pyramids, worker.
Lakamha (founded in 2040 BC by the fish east of Mutal) builds: worker, holkan (partial), workboat
Chichen Itza (founded in 1720 BC near the gems) builds: holkan
I have explored the island and marked the city sites I think are worth it. Only two happy resources in this land, gems and a calendar resource. I guess ball courts will be useful this game.
I just scored the mids, so I plan to switch to slavery and representation next turn…
We got a prophet (Jeanne d’Arc) in (1710 BC) who is settled in Mutal (no shrine to be made, no Theology bulb in hand).
Civ4ScreenShot0074.jpg

In the near future, the plan is to tech alpha and Code of law to enable a philo bulb and possibly a religion (or two, depends on timing). From now on, I think no more wonders but settlers and workers instead to backfill the island… an exception can be made for Angkor vat, which is on our tech path and speed up by stone…
No idea on the victory, too early for that, I want to see the opponents first…
Finally, some screenshots of the land and cities:
Mutal:
Civ4ScreenShot0078.jpg

Lakamha:
Civ4ScreenShot0079.jpg

Chichen Itza:
Civ4ScreenShot0080.jpg

South:
Civ4ScreenShot0076.jpg

North:
Civ4ScreenShot0077.jpg



Cheers,

Raskolnikov

PS: I feel I am not very good at speaking English so don't hesitate to correct me...;)
Thanks Dresden!
 

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I'll sign up for this, I failed in the Isobela game, at Marathon, I couldn't catch up or compete with them tech wise, I need to trade more..

I've had many goes at both marathon and normal, and my warrior starts in a differing position EVERY TIME.

I'll have a go at this one, I may go normal speed/monarch. But I'm going to forgo the Pyramids/Great library and try to utilize Monarchy MORE, which to now I've practically ignored.

I'm still going on Isobela, learning some stuff, and I've long since given away Cyrus & Brenus.

Financial, I may even try a cottage or 3.
 
yes, its 1020 ad and 1st check point...don't laugh... I'm seriously shot this game..as I said just not used to the speed and its enter enter..

Spoiler :
yeah yeah 1st things first. maps the Northern 1/2

Northernlands0000.jpg


and the southern 1/2

Southernlands0000.jpg


Incredibly, stonehenge I was able to get in 1800 bc 5 Turns to build...the GREAT WALL the 1st overseas wonder to go. went in 1000 bc WTH..

Oracle in 850 bc, Temple of armitis in 325 bc and lost the pyramids by 1 turn in 70 ad.... WTH....WTH???

2 GG's have been born overseas and I've only just adopted heriditary rule...built the Apostolic palace, Christianity founded the same turn I got Great profit to bulb it :mad:

as of now, no asthetics wonders have gone....I've got 2 cities and barbs only have archers...

No seriously....WTH...WTH...WTH????

I've played really badly...took only 1/2 hr to go this far....just click and burn...

I'd better pay attention now....


 
Hi IPEX,

Spoiler :
stop everything and start building settlers, workers, garison troups until there is no room in the island, you will think about tech rate later... I advise you the site with fish and clams south west of Mutal first: size 5 it can work two food ressources and 3 hills and produce settlers and workers nicely.
Keep the barb city, it trashs your 4 ressources site but you can't afford to waste hammers anymore...
Once the island is covered, cottages, scientists and diplo should do...good luck anyways


Cheers,

Raskolnikov
 
Checkpoint 1. Prince/Epic.

Spoiler :
Didn't take any screenshots, sorry. Next checkpoint I'll try to include a few :)

Settled in place to start. My strategy with the early game was to leverage Pacal's Financial trait, so I hit Fishing as my first tech, to gain access to the 2F/3T trade from the lake. Made a run at Polytheism while building a worker - lost by two turns. My exploring warrior popped barbarians in the centre of the island and died, so I quickly built a warrior and researched bronze-working to get Holkans online. My worker, meanwhile, spammed riverside cottages for trade. Once I was secure from barbarian warriors, I built Stonehenge so my future cities could border-pop easily.

Settled city #2 just south of the three gem resources, in place for all three to be in the city's BFC. Got them all mined and worked, which has meant a good teching rate. Settled #3 on the opposite coast (i.e. west instead of east) while researching iron-working so I could clear the jungle there and turn it into my GP farm. Iron popped up in an already mined square in the capital's BFC, which was nice.

My next city site is going SW of the capital, in the desert next to the one plains tile down there. I figure with a lighthouse and moai, that'll actually be a pretty nice city (for production until the statues finish, it'll have a desert hill to mine, and I'll put a workshop on the plain). Also, I bet that desert has a late game resource in it.

After that, I plan to expand north. Most cities will go on the coastline, but I have two inland spots picked out as my military cities.
 
First shot at this series.

I have read a few of these a while back.

Playing Emperor/Normal Speed.

(just to make sure I did it right, I loaded the Monarch scenario, switched difficulty to Emperor – how 'close' to 'true' Emperor difficulty will this be?).

Love Expansive. Think this trait is REALLY under-rated. Especially if our start is low on health resources. The cheap buildings will really be useful to a start like this.

Financial is OK to me, usually I would prefer Cha/Cre/Agg but as we won't be warring early and have a large coast this trait should be solid.

Interesting start. Stone would be nice for Mids/GW/Henge but I think a wonderwhoring approach would not be making good use of our traits (running rep scientists would be nice but I feel riverside grassland cottages will better support early expansion)

Additionally, I am terrible at playing wonder based games!

That said, I will use certain early wonders, namely the Oracle to get MC. Planning to grab Colossus early.

I considered going for the GLH, but if we only have domestic trade routes I do not think GLH will be a worthwhile diversion – I would prefer to leverage Expansive and Financial, cover our island faster and work more coastal/cottage tiles.

To Checkpoint 1:

Spoiler :
Turn 0 – 4000BC

Settle in place. If we had Fishing/Myst I would take a shot at Hinduism working the 1F3C tile.

Planning to Oracle MC. Holkans should be enough for defence.

Build Worker, tech Agriculture.

Turn 5 – 3800 BC

We have a few gems in the jungle NE of us, nice. Also able to work a 1F2H1C tile now that borders have popped.

Turn 9 – 3640 BC

Buddishm FIADL. Would have taken me 11 turns. Agriculture done, decide to start working on Hunting for early Holkans. Figure 1-2 Holkans is much better than 3-4 Warriors for fighting barbs.

Turn 15 – 3400 BC

Hunting done. Need BW for Holkans/MC so start on that next. Worker done, start farming Corn.

Build Warrior.

Turn 18 – 3280 BC

Hinduism FIADL. Shame, I could have got this in 14 turns :(

Turn 25 – 3000 BC

Warrior done. Start on another Warrior. Worker has improved Corn and mined a hill.

Turn 30 – 2800 BC

BW done. Revolt to Slavery. Start Meditation.

Copper to the N but not quite near enough to my capital. Time to start training Holkans! :)

Turn 32 – 2760 BC

Warrior built in capital, now I have three. Start training a Holkan and pre-chopping forests around capital.

Turn 36 – 2620 BC

Holkan trained. Start on another Holkan.

Turn 40 – 2400 BC

Holkan trained. Start on a Settler. Have explored most of the island, popped huts for some gold although two huts had hostile warriors in them :(

Holkans fogbusting for city site #2.

Turn 41 – 2360 BC

Meditation in. Start Wheel.

Turn 46 – 2160 BC

Island totally explored.

LHCXXX-Turn46-2160BC-Dotmap.jpg


Looks ok in food and luxury resources. As I was planning to go for the Colossus anyway, I think I will be building many many small cities and working as many water tiles as I can.

Overall a decent set. I am nearing my goal of MC and have most of my fogbusters in place. Developing my cities will be more difficult as I lack Fishing, AH and Iron Working so most of my food sources are not yet available to me.
 
My game is over. See spoiler for details.

Spoiler :
Barb archers took out a few of my sentried Holkans at extremely low odds and marched on my cities. I whipped to save one city but lost two of my first five cities. This set me very far back.

Played on, did a crazy expand to fill my island (founded 9 cities within ~20 turns at one point!!), managed to grab confu, found other AI's. Was quite behind in tech but catching up as I had finally settled + cottaged my island.

Then got chain-invaded - 3 times within a 10 turn period.

Had a half-dozen muskets defending, a few catapults, 4-5 swords + axes, archers and warriors also garrisoning cities. Held off the first invasion, the rest KO'd me.

Think I made two big mistakes - Colossus was not that helpful as I was not really working normal water tiles until the last ~50 turns of the game and grabbing Confu was not helpful as I had no religion civics until very late in the game.

My REX timing was also off. I did not have enough workers and I overexpanded in the Medieval ages, re-crashing my economy. I still think a multi-city overlapping approach is superior as it will allow me to work more tiles, I just need to build less infrastructure and more military.

Pretty common way to misplay a game I feel.


Gonna try the game again with a different strategy as I did not even meet all the AI's.
 
Hi Berkobob,

Spoiler :
Bad luck with the barbs! In my game, I build the GW before expanding and that was of great help! With stone in Mutal, it’s not very expensive even if it brings the possibility of an early great spy which is a little annoying in isolation… About religion, you can try to grab Tao instead of Confu (or both!) so you can make use of a religious civic, or make a little detour by mono. I wish you good luck for your next run… I will try to make it to checkpoint 2 tonight or tomorrow…


Cheers,

Raskolnikov
 
There's nothing wrong with getting and making use of a religion - in fact I recommend it since the OR bonus to buildings or the pacifism bonus to GPs can both be very useful gains (most of what you're making is buildings, while pac opens up faster GPs which can easily contribute to the lib race, although sadly going that route's a little slow for an astro bulb). Just be careful with relations - a heathen religion is a strong benefit but IMO typically a temporary one on LHC maps.
 
Checkpoint 2 (1435AD). Prince/Epic.

Spoiler :

The decision to leverage Pacal's financial trait continues to produce dividends. By 1150AD I am one turn from Optics, and I haven't yet seen another civ, leading me to suspect that I am at least competitive on the tech front. That feeling is reinforced by my success in gaining Theology first, and founding Christianity. I know this will make me something of a pariah when I finally do meet the world, but the advantages of organized religion in the mean time are too great to pass up.

One area where I am a little behind is expansion. I have seven cities right now. First, my capital, my GP farm (only now starting to really come online thanks to Civil Service), and my desert city (which Moai is about to turn into a fine city).

LonelyPacal01.jpg


Then further north my two production cities (West Garrison in particular should be a monster), my primary commerce city (Gemtown) and a secondary commerce city (Lakamsha, which I will eventually rename 'West Coast', so I can remember where it is!). The two axemen at the top of the screenshot are in the locations of the next two cities I'll found. Settlers need to come soon.

LonelyPacal02a.jpg


I took a shot at the Apostolic Palace in the hopes of a cheap, backdoor diplo win after contact with the foreign powers, but a turn or two later, it was built by the Hindus. Whoever they are :) I have managed to pick up a couple of useful wonders, though.

LonelyPacal03.jpg


Having lost the Apostolic race, I use my capital to spam out two caravels and set off to see who I can find. I quickly learn that as expected, no-one likes me. They like Frederick even less, though - he's the worst enemy of all three other powers on his continent. Mehmed and Monty are having a Buddhist love-in. The good part of that is Monty has been completely choked by his Ottoman neighbor, and is actually lowest in power rating in the whole world.

I've finally sewn up my whole island:

LonelyPacal04a.jpg


And traded my map around, getting Napoleon's in exchange, which shows me most of the rest of the world (as you can see in the minimap).

As I'd expected, I'm up with the leaders on the tech board, despite being isolated all this time.

My plans for the next section of the game:

1. Settle the islands to my south-east
2. Stir up trouble on the big continent
3. Put Monty out of his 'bottom of the power pile' misery

 
Bah, and double bah, I've given up on this, I just can't seem to get into it.

I've really lost interest lately, I might need and extended break like sissy girl.

I've had couple of tries at normal speed, its just enter, wonder build and its 1100 ad before I konw it and i've got 3 cities....

I"m really not trying and doing justice to it..Thanks Rolo..
 
Checkpoint 3 (1833 AD). Prince/Epic.

Spoiler :

At the last checkpoint, I had a three point plan. How'd it go? Not too bad, though more slowly than it should have, as I needed a lot longer to build up a real military force than I'd intended.

Step one was to settle the islands to my south-east. I sent over a settler, a maceman, and a longbow to start with, and founded a city on the western island. It turned out there was already a size 7 barb city on the eastern island, guarded by longbows, so I switched to building CR macemen and trebuchets to go take it, rather than sending over another settling party.

The barb city fell, but the decision to delay a second settling party proved a mistake, as Mehmed poached the northern peninsula of the island. The Ottoman may end up regretting that!

LonelyPacal06.jpg


Meanwhile, I'd checked the diplomacy screens, and it emerged that - despite good relations - Napoleon was willing to declare on Hannibal. The two 'big dogs' of the eastern continent in a slugging match? Sounded good to me. But the Napster wanted Steel as part of the deal, and I was worried that he'd have things too easy with that kind of advantage.

So I gifted Steel to Hannibal, then unleashed Napoleon. :)

Nappy pretty quickly brought in some allies, until only Monty and I were not in the dance.

LonelyPacal05.jpg


A couple of Hannibal's cities fell to Napoleon, and a couple of Isabella's to Mehmed, making me very glad I'd at least stiffened the Carthaginian's resistance before bribing the Frenchman.

So two steps down, on with step three, right?

Well, not exactly. You see, some bonehead (oh, that would be me) had diverted one of his two main military cities for a doomed run at the Statue of Liberty. Hey, I was running representation - the temptation was just too great, okay? :)

LonelyPacal09.jpg


At least a look at the tech screen made it clear that Monty wasn't going to be any trouble, once I finally had the troops to attack him (and the ships to get there).

LonelyPacal10.jpg


But eventually, the fleet sailed: five galleons filled with riflemen, cannon and a holkan (the medic), and guarded by five frigates. Should be a cakewalk, right?

Well, yes and no. It turned out that by the time I sailed, Monty could actually field frigates - and he had a half dozen of them. So while the first assault was very successful, the fleet had a devil of a time bringing reinforcements.

But bring them they did. Though at some cost in ships (including some galleons, but none with any troops on them), the men went ashore. Monty just had time to produce his first musketmen before the sun set on the Aztec empire.

LonelyPacal11.jpg


If you check the minimap in that image, you'll see where Mehmed had taken a couple of cities off Isabella (Hannibal's colony) during the earlier war. And it was Mehmed who was my next target ... albeit in a culture war. I'd just founded Creative Constructions, and my two Aztec gains on the same landmass as the Ottoman were quickly made into the newest outposts for this corporation.

Despite the Aztec War, I'm aiming for space in this game, not domination. I will build enough troops to protect my hemisphere, but I don't fancy trying to project enough force to seriously dent the Napoleon-Peter alliance, which is clearly the pre-eminent force on the other side of the planet.

 
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