G-III Golf

Hello and welcome to the new G-III gauntlet.

This time we're going to stay with Large, go up one to Demi-god (Diety for Lord E) and 20k cultural. So give in to your wonder addiction, you're going to need it.

• Mapsize: Large
• Difficulty: Demi-god
• Condition: 20k Cultural

Who says slave labor is a bad thing? (the slaves)


All submissions for this gauntlet must be in by November 15th, 2008. Good luck!

First thing to remember when generating maps for this gauntlet:

Put SGL's on. Nothing like a 5 cow start and you realize your SGL fishing is for naught

Second thing to remember when generating maps for this gauntlet:

Set difficulty to DEMIGOD, not Sid. The large Sid 20K gauntlet was months ago.

Hmmmm.... this thread anyone??? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=162674

You are correct, that thread is always helpful. Good link.

I've been trying a pangea persia start - tech pace is tough and I lost MoM, HG and Great Wall to the ToA, then I didn't pay enough attention and Mayan's created a pileup and I went under. I don't know that Maya is a good civ to have, actually - they seem to go for writing.

Pangea sounds tough, I'm going for 70% archi, I was originally trying with 80% but was finding that on a large map I was quite often having to use suicide curraghs to make contacts.

It is tough - I've done some tiny pangea at demigod and those worked out well, but the # of other civs makes the tech pace high. I think it's potentially better, cause you can get an early heroic epic and your cities all grow faster so your late game research is better

I must actually do this one, and also manage to remember:

1. It's not a freaking OCC (I have been in a rut of doing some OCC Monarch games on large/huge maps)

2. Really, it's not a freaking OCC.

Just so you know, the #1 game was played as a OCC until sometime after 1000 BC. There is a very chance of getting a #1 spot with a win in this gauntlet, on a hard difficulty level.

Well, I don't think this will last all that long as the top spot in this gauntlet. But, (unless I messed up my submission somehow) I've got the 2nd spot in the HoF so far. I can see why so few submissions for this game. *My* medieval research pace barely kept up with wonder building. The AIs didn't really fair much better. I played a standard Deity non-hall of fame 20k game before this and it felt much better even though I ended up with multiple AIs on my island, because I could actually tech decently in the medieval period. When your expansion phase doesn't really strat until after The Colossus things can go slowly. Anyways... the rundown

Palace-3950 B.C.
Colossus-2190 B.C.
Temple-2030 B.C. (aided by 2 chops... I had three forests).
Oracle-1400 B.C.
Museum of Mausollos-690 B.C.
Great Lighthouse-510 B.C.
Temple of Artemis-490 B. C.
Library-470 B.C.
Hanging Gardens-310 B. C.
Great Library-10 B. C.
Colosseum-10 A. D.
Cathedral-130 A. D. (if only I had got all the extra gold the AIs had early on, but spent before I finished The Great Library, I would have had this in 30 A. D.)
Sistine Chapel-420 A.D.
University-450 A. D.
Knights Templar 570 A. D.
J. S. Bach's-800 A. D.
Copernicus's Observatory-950 A. D.
Shakespeare's Theater-1120 A. D.
Newton's Uni.-1250 A. D.
Smith's-1345
Uni. Suffrage-1350
Heroic Epic-1385
TOE-1465
Hoover's Dam-1510
Wall Street-1530
Intelligence Agency-1555
Mil. Academy-1580
Battlefield Medicine-1610
Pentagon-1645
Finish-1670

I didn't know if I wanted the AIs to tech a little bit faster or slower. I did decide that I didn't want anyone starting The Pyramids early, if I got lucky. I think Cathy though popped an SGL though, so she finished The Pyramids in 2030 B.C. And so life goes. My Opponents? Russia, Sumeria, Germany, Inca, Japan (since they start with The Wheel that *might* pick up the tech pace), and The Aztecs. I did do some gifting at the beginning of the Industrial age, after I drew my free tech in case I could build a modern age wonder (I didn't even learn Motorized Transportation). I think Sumeria got Medicine.

I wanted The Republic slinghsot so I wouldn't have the wasted shields of the depotism golden age. So, I ended up going curragh-worker-worker-The Colossus-The Oracle-Settler-pre-build with a granary and hope I can trade for Polytheism... swap to curragh and repeat two or three times. The last time I did that, I forget I pre-build with a courthouse and sure enough the very next turn Cathy got Polytheism. And so life goes.

Having learned from my non-HOF Deity game that my other cities would have trouble with happiness... not have luxuries and not having many shields to build improvements for a while I forestted a bunch of squares and then chopped them to speed production in my other cities. I also disbanded crusaders as soon as I got them to the right city. In this sort of game cathedrals feel like my best friend. After that I added in some workers to try and pick up my reserach rate.

I thought I would play peacefully and forget the Heroic Epic, but when I had coal and I couldn't trade for iron until 10 or so turns before the game's end saw the Inca had a source, I decided on an invasion. Russia had invaded earlier and taken three cities at one point before I got one back via resistance and took the other two back via longbows, crusaders, and trebuchets. While training units to take the Incan iron source, Sumeria landed on my shores. Their silly war ended up netting me a leader which I used for a cavalry army. When I had them cleared out I made peace, packed up my rifles and my army, took a settler, and landed on Incan shores. I had learned Replacable Parts a few turns earlier, but *forgot* to upgrade my rifles to infantry and my trebuchets to artillery. So, I landed, the Inca asked me to leave, and I said no. I survived and founded a city next to the iron, cash-rushed a library, plopped some rifles on that iron mountain, and used the cavalry army to attack the nearby Incan town. I surived another turn, used the army to raze the nearby Incan town, I would now have iron, and I cash-rushed a harbor. I survived that turn, and had iron now on my mainland, so I rushed a factory in Constantinople, spawned another MGL (which I barely snuck away) and put a single worker railroading on every tile by two around Constantinople. If I could have survived the next turn, my cavalry army would have significantly healed. I lost the city the next turn as the Inca threw pikes and spears at my army. I left the rifles on the iron mountain to die... though they did spawn a leader which swiftly got killed on the same turn. So, I got just enough time to build a factory and some rails, and had a pitiful military now on my homeland. It didn't matter though, since no one landed on my shores the rest of the game.

Some screenies. Oh... compare the 1410 homeland and the final homeland screenies. I changed things up so I could build The Pentagon *and* have an army spot left over to pre-bulid for a modern age wonder. Meaning, I needed 16 cities. Of course, I didn't get there, so it didn't have any effect on my finish date.

Don't you hate it when you've got a two-cow start with plenty hills going, a good build time on The Colossus and a second city up which has an irrigated cow of its own, you have contact with The Zulu... but they don't even have Cermonial Burial let alone Mysticism afterwards, you have that Writing SGL, you spot pink borders a turn away, AND your curragh sinks?

I've developed a different sort of strategy (it needs more development) which might work well. I don't know if it's necessarily "the best" since early SGLs work out as more culturally influential than anything else. Anyways, this might give someone food for thought.

Play as Carthage, put 6 scientific rivals in except for The Ottos and Persia. Research mathematics first at a minimum rate. Make sure you have ivory (that's half the key to this strategy). In the game I've played so far, the AIs had Writing (I met Korea) the same turn I learned Mathematics. Trade for Writing. Research Philosophy. Take Currency as your free tech. At this level, you almost surely want some Numidian Mercs for that early leader fishing. I didn't do it, but maybe put barbarians on for promotions?

You'll have faster workers, so you might have a little extra time for your second city to produce some Numidian Mercs, or train fewer workers so your second and other cities develop faster for those units (I don't know about this). Maybe even build barracks if you don't have barbarians around.

carthage isn't a bad civ for this. Actually, you could go CB to fish for a leader with this plan. Big problem with fishing for a pyramids SGL is that you get a despotic GA with collosus, of course.

I wouldnt' worry about leaderfishing - generally, I assume that any real war before I have a couple of cities up to provide troops is a disaster at this level. A civ dropping an archer off from a galley doesn't count, of course.

My first attempt has ended with a 1575ad victory.

Settings were 70% archipelago, wet, temperate, 3 billion years. Opponents were America, Aztecs, Inca, China, Mongols and Zulu.

This was the start: -



A pretty nice start, 3 cows, 3 hills and 7 bonus grass, Constantinople itself was built on an 8th BG!

Research went minimum on writing then max on code of law then philosophy getting the slingshot to Republic. Initial build order was curragh, settler then Colossus and nothing but culture buildings thereafter.

Unfortunately I didn't get a single SGL in this game (and I checked I definitely had them switched on!) but despite that I managed to bag Colossus, Oracle and Pyramids, complete list of builds as follows: -



I will keep trying as there is still much improvement to be made, a couple of ancient age SGL's will be a start!

Big problem with fishing for a pyramids SGL is that you get a despotic GA with collosus, of course.

Click to expand...

I admit the despotic GA *sounds* bad. After all, we're use to that as bad for most games, right? But, the more I think about this sort of game, the more I think it matters less than we might expect. Unless you have good luck with the AIs like Aigburth did handbuilding both The Oracle and The Pyramids as the Byzantines I don't think building both will usually work at this level (admittedly I could have gotten this wrong). You probably already know this, but if you break down the game to year periods it goes
50 year periods from 4000-2750
40 year periods from 2710-1750
25 year periods from 1725-750
20 year periods from 730 BC-250 AD
10 year periods from 260-1250 AD
5 year periods from 1255-1750
2 year periods starting at 1752 until sometime later (I put the game on Cheiftain on a tiny map, fortified my worker, set production to wealth, and clicked next turn for a while).

I tend to think this implies that we should look at ancient age wonders as more like double their culture for their shield/culture ratio (it's a bit less admittedly... maybe like 2/3 or 1/2 or something like that). Let's say I manage The Pyramids at 3000 BC, and then The Colossus at 1870 BC instead of 2030 BC for The Colossus and 1500 BC for The Pyramids (maybe you'd lose The Colossus this way and I'm not sure how realistic that is). For The Pyramids 3000 BC, The Colossus-1870 by 1 AD you've accumlated something like 4*23+8*83+38*3+41*6=1116 culture from those two wonders. For The Colossus at 2030 BC and The Pyramids at 1500 BC you have something like 35*3+48*6+4*32+25*8=721 culture from those two wonders. Maybe I've estimated poorly here, but will a non-despotic golden age give that 400 extra culture? I somehow doubt it. Say I've mis-estimated wrong and it's only a 200 culture difference. Will the well-timed golden age really make that up?

Has anyone actually popped an SGL on Ceremonial Burial at this level?

My attempt with an early war didn't fare too well.

I popped a CB SGL in my aborted Persia game (the one I referenced above).

Certainly, getting the despotic GA isn't the worst thing in the world - I certainly wouldn't be all that upset with one if I got an SGL for pyramids and a nice start. .

A despotic GA will give you extra shields for hills, irrigated plains/cows and mined grass - you won't, obviously, for mined BG or forests, so you'd probably not get an extra shield for 3-6 tiles, so it's not the best. I think you may end up losing more commerce, unless most all your tiles have a commerce bonus already, which may be the bigger thing - getting Shakespeare's fast is probably the most important thing in the game, as it has a huge effect on culture, shields and commerce.

Hmmm... interesting thought about Shake's AutomatedTeller. Maybe that helps explain the Deity game I had here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=296795 Although, thinking about that game I actually researched Free Artistry in 4 turns and then popped an SGL on it. I wonder... if you look through the best HoF games for every victory condition how often do you find The Pyramids rushed by an SGL?

For a lot of them, yes. Pyramids is pretty much a game breaker for a lot of times.

Conquest - probably close to none.
20K - you get much below demigod, and the top times will almost all have an early pyramids SGL, I would think. demigod and above, especially as the maps get bigger, it's not as much - it's hard to pass up a 6 cow, 10 hill coastal start, just because you have an SGL. My large 20K Sid #1 had no SGL's at all (though I think Chamnix's game had an early one)
I'd guess that, in the other games, you get more early SGL's for pyramids at lower levels and larger maps - for 100K, pyramids are great - but since you are probably going to take over the AI anyway, might as well let them build it and take it from them.

AutomatedTeller said:

Just so you know, the #1 game was played as a OCC until sometime after 1000 BC.

Click to expand...

I will take your word for it.

Don't remember the game at all. Can't load the save to check, either. I think it was a judgement call as to how fast my 20k city would grow, and how fast it could be improved, if it produced workers itself vs how well I'd go making just a settler, and using the second city to produce workers. An early SGL meaning a lack of culture builds was also a good reason to make workers in the 20k city.


For me, demigod was roughly at the border between going pangaea to give the tech pace as much of a boost as possible, or going archipelago to try and slow down the initial rush, slow the cascades, and get away with a skeleton military force.

Glad to see my thread is still helping, too.

Apart from the obvious SGL luck, the biggest factor in this game is probably how fast you can get to 12 fully improved tiles, and either 25 spt or 30 spt. From memory, my usual method was to hopefully get at least 7 bonus food in despotism, meaning 3 turn growth without a granary while I cranked out the workers. If I did get a pyramid SGL, then 10 food if I could, for 1 turn growth, or 5 food and more shields. I hated being forced to grow myself once I was size 6 or higher, it was almost always done by joining workers. Even if I was running as a OCC, getting the second city was hopefully accomplished by building a one turn settler at size 12, and instantly joining one or two workers to go straight back to 12.

For me, demigod was roughly at the border between going pangaea to give the tech pace as much of a boost as possible, or going archipelago to try and slow down the initial rush, slow the cascades, and get away with a skeleton military force.

Click to expand...

This makes me think continents, but I don't know.