Immortal Cookbook II: Pericles of Greece

@Carl

Spoiler :


It is amazing that you mentioned Constitution/Democracy/Coporation/Steam Power does not give me new units.

They do not give new units, but they enable civis(US/Emancipation)/buildings (levee) that double/triple my hammer counts + fast growing cottages in multiple cities :crazyeye:.

And I already switched to Theo committing to troop productions. I still dont understand why you are making all your arguments at 1200AD, my save has the potential of winning domination in the 1700's. As I said, I am not spending too much time on this game, teching is fast, and war will be fast too.

 
@ABigCivFan:

Spoiler :

It is amazing that you mentioned Constitution/Democracy/Corporation/Steam Power does not give me new units.
Click to expand...

I think there's a misunderstanding again. I'm saying those techs don't give you any new types of units. Best troops before them: Cavalry/Rifles. Best troops 4 techs later: Cavalry/Rifles. If Cavalry/Rifles win now, Cavalry/Rifles were even better before. You're making the argument that these units can't finish the job, I'm saying their job wasn't to finish the game, but to win two-three wars.

They do not give new units, but they enable civics(US/Emancipation)/buildings (levee) that double/triple my hammer counts + fast growing cottages in multiple cities
Click to expand...

US gives you one hammer/town. Boosted by Bureaucracy and HE in the capital, sure, but you'll still build at most one unit per turn in there. Not all cottages have grown into towns, and the fact that 4 towns give you the same amount of production from US as 1 CS/Chemistry workshop doesn't support your point. 4 towns produce half the production of 2 farms + 2 workshops. Yes, your tech rate is slower, but that's my point! You don't need more techs for now. Emancipation mostly boosts your tech rate too, it only boost your production once the cottages fully mature. And levees will indeed boost your hammers too, but they need to be built! That happens AFTER four techs.

And I already switched to Theo committing to troop productions. I still don't understand why you are making all your arguments at 1200AD, my save has the potential of winning domination in the 1700's. As I said, I am not spending too much time on this game, teching is fast, and war will be fast too.
Click to expand...

I'm saying that had you started building units everywhere when you got to Rifling your save would have probably been won 100 or more years earlier. Yes, that doesn't really matter, as it's won either way. Yes, standing back and teching to an even more impressive unit difference may be simpler.* But you're keeping yourself weaker for more of the game. :shrug: It's a risk assessment question: I perceive a risk in your strategy that you don't. To each his own. :)

*I guess it's like trying to find the killer combination in chess when you're already a knight ahead and know that it's a simple win by simply trading pieces. I've done the latter quite a few times, so I'm not saying what you're doing is bad. :)
 
@Carl:
Spoiler :
I agree with ABigCivFan when he said that there is no point in stopping the research... I will stop it to upgrade my troops then up the slider again... the two reasons to slow research that I can see are: you lack spy points on your target, or you have too much unhappy people due to wars... I could be wrong though
 
@Carl

Spoiler :


What risk? Sury is friendly and engaged with Daruis. And I am amassing Cavs/spies to crush Cathy.

And you keep missing the most important points in my strategy. I dont "take it easy" just because I am already ahead. I play to continuously improve my overall winning chance.

Take a look at my report, I had 13 towns in capital @1200AD, running Univ. Suff. gives 13 FREE base hammers, these hammers dont need food to support oppose to your CS/chemistry workshops. With bonus when producing troops, these 13 hammers = 13 * 2.75 = 35.75 hammers/turn.

Next with levee, it will give this capital 19 more FREE base hammers which is 19*2.75=52.25 hammers when producing military.

So these 2 factors boost my hammer output of 1 city by 88 hammers. If you look carefully at the other 5 river side cities, they will get very significant hammer boosts with levee.

With Enmancipation, cottages everywhere quickly turn into towns and getting those free hammers. And I will need all the hammer i could get for a fast war.

To sum things up, my strategy in this game is basically "play by map" the map (Floods heavy, with multiple long rivers, large land mass) told me that it will be a very strong CE/Bureacracy capital game with major boosts coming from CS/Education/Democracy/Steam power. And I simply stick with the plan while paid attention to diplomatic relations as not to get involved in unnecessary early wars. And win domination with a Bliz military compaign.


 
@ABigCivFan:

Spoiler :

Instead of going back and forth, I'll sum up what I see is my position and what I see is yours. If you disagree, I guess no amount of arguing will settle this.

Your position: get all the techs/buildings that boost your CE, then blitz to domination. Advantage: once you get ahead in tech, you stay there until the end. War will be very fast and effortless. Cost: deferring production until late in the game makes you weak until then. Remedy: diplomacy.

My position: when I get a dominant unit, I go to war. Advantage: the power is comparable to the AIs throughout the game, so less problems in case of surprise attack and less chances of it to happen (i.e. attack from Cathy who's Cautious and has almost twice your power even if in obsolete units). Cost: teching slows through wars, wars are slower if the unit difference is not as high as in the first variant.

If you want, take a look at EMC I. I tried throughout the game to create a very well balanced empire, take advantage of cheap universities, set up Oxford in Bureaucratic capital, etc. Things went faster for the people who simply took more land even with little military advantage. So I'm not oblivious to your position at all, and I've played like that in the past (albeit rarely). It's just that all things considered I think the other way is safer and faster, that's all.

I rest my case. ;)
 
@carl

Spoiler :


You need to be a little more flexible when analyzing the trade offs Land Vs. Tech Vs. Military.

In this game, there is already enough great land to develop your empire(i.e. grow your cities/boost tech/produciton/power). I had 12 great city spots by REX.

I did not need to expand via military early this game while I kept my neighbors friendly/pleased with Sentries watching for any troop build up.

btw in your game, how many Curis did it take to kill the Russian Pikeman fortified in that hill city without bombard down the cultural defenses?

 
@ABigCivFan

Spoiler :

btw in your game, how many Curis did it take to kill the Russian Pikeman fortified in that hill city without bombard down the cultural defenses?
Click to expand...

If you mean on the eastern front, then I suicided a catapult and a treb, and I don't think I lost any units after that. On the western front it was also slow, but I had more siege nearby.

The reasons are simple though: I declared war on Cathy not because I thought I was prepared. Hardly that. I declared because she had attacked Wang and was most probably going to vassalize him. Two of her cities were right next to my border and with my troops near them, so those fell on the first turn. The other two took a few turns. I'm at 0.9 of her power and she and Bismark are the only ones that outrank me in power, with Cathy fighting two wars at a time. And Wang is not likely to vassalize to her.

And yes, the plan is to simply continue with Cuirassiers only until Cathy is killed/vassalized. I've had some games in which I played like this, or games with Justinian in which Cataphracts took on Longbows/Pikemen/War Elephants/Knights. They were all easy wins despite having more losses than a Cavalry vs Muskets/Longbows/Pikes war.
 
When do we start voting Carl?

KingMorgan and Kaleb won't be able to submit a save this time and it seems Araneya is not playing the game unfortunaly... That leaves Abegweit (hurry up ;) ) to wait for...
It would be nice to elect a save before the end of the we because the round 3 has been long enough... and people will loose interest

Cheers
 
This is my effort. Sorry I'm late. :blush: I will modify this post with a report overnight PDT.

Report: I started from my own save. I realized that CivFan had a good point about the stone so in my second turn I whipped out the settler in Sparta and sent it to claim the rock. Sury had built a fort on it. How nice of him. :lol: Tech path continued quietly with Education and Gunpowder according to my planned notion of taking Steel from Liberalism. At this point, no one was willing to trade me Engineering and I was bedammed if I would research it on my own so I started on Nationalism, thinking Constitution or MS might be a decent alternative. I was near finished when someone, Wang I think, offered the tech. I was still well ahead in the Liberalism race so I decided to finish off Nat and take Steel after all.

Put up unis in several cities. Whipped a couple (including Knossos for two - that hurt) and the capital built Oxford after that. As soon as Oxford was finished I used my saved GA for a Golden Age. The capital built the Taj (we do have marble, after all) while the rest of the cities (except Knossos) built basic infra and military.

I whipped a LOT of military. So many cities... so much to be whipped... Around 1050AD Cathy went into WHEOOHRN. I searched around for her stack and troop movements. It seemed pretty clear that her target was Darius. I considered letting her have her war and shifting my troops around to wipe out Sury. However all my men were poised for the attack against her and it would have taken about six moves to turn the machine around. So I continued on with the original plan, despite her focus on military. Two cities have fallen and a third will come down next turn.

The Taj came in. We are near the end of our second GA and Democracy is due one turn. It is time for a big change in civics.

A couple of screenshots. First the capital.



Not sure how realistic this is since it is taken in GA @100 science. Still, as I read it, those are the conditions where ABCF took his capital shot. In contrast with that one, all the tiles are worked with no unhealth or unhappiness. There's a specialist too. Question: is this better or worse than the start? I'll let you decide. More importantly, this city has contributed absolutely nothing (other than research, of course) to the armies which are ripping Russia to shreds. I think this shows that a many-sided approach works better.

Demographics. Note the power ratings too.

 

Attachments

  • Immortal Abegweit II AD-1200.CivBeyondSwordSave
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RRRaskolnikov, Kaleb did post a save for this round. Araneya and KingMorgan are the only ones not posting a save.

Some comments on the saves:
- Abegweit: will drop a bit in production after the Golden Age, but since our biggest competitor in Catherine and she's losing cities right now, I think we can safely say he'll be first in everything soon enough. Should build Heroic Epic once the war with Cathy is over, but it will be a matter of turns with Marble hooked up. 19 workers and whatever else we capture from Cathy will help improve tiles around her cities fast. Great overall save.

- Kaleb: no gunpowder units other than muskets, although heading for Rifling. Last in power. Not sure why we got the Astronomy-line techs.

- Jet: at war with Sury. A bit weak, but has Cannons and will get Grenadiers soon.

- Ras: got Steel and will get Military Science in a few turns. Can get around 1600 gold in trades, enough to upgrade all our trebs and remain with 1000+ gold for deficit research. Got a stack prepared to go through Russian lands.

I've commented enough on ABigCivFan's save already, so I won't repeat myself. :)

Votes:
1. Abegweit - 3 points
2. RRRaskolnikov - 2 points
3. ABigCivFan - 1 point
 
ACBF 3pts powerful teching. far ahead in this department. A lot of undeveloped tiles. Not sure why that should be with a smallish empire and a good number of workers but there you have it.

RRR 2pts good empire. preparing for war.

Jet 1pts nice overall development.

@Carl I have marble. I've been thinking about the HE which has just been unlocked. Undoubtedly it will go in Corinth and should be started next turn. As for GDP, yeah it will decline a bit. OTOH, my main source of production has been food. Not sure why the game puts me first in life expectancy. :lol:
 
Many saves here are very well played, I call this game a win and will stop here. I hope everyone learned something.
 
Abegweit said:
@Carl I have marble. I've been thinking about the HE which has just been unlocked.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know, that's what I wanted to say, that since marble is hooked up you can build the HE at a discount.

Undoubtedly it will go in Corinth and should be started next turn.
Click to expand...

I know you have lots of units already, but is it worth it to build the HE now, or should you build units instead? I've recently wondered about the opportunity of building HE and WP. Most of the time I manage to unlock HE early enough that I'll build it in a period of empire development, but WP on the other hand comes when I just got Cuirassiers and building it instead of units is probably a waste of time for the first war I fight. I wonder if it's the same case here. Anyway, a very "theoretical" discussion, as both ways will work just fine considering Cathy's power. :)

As for life expectancy, I never pay attention to those numbers, but I think they have something to do with how much you can still grow your cities (how much you have to the happiness cap). Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
@Carl. Sorry. It was clear what you meant. My bad.

As for the HE, I am convinced that the time is now. ATM, most of my military is coming from whipping. At some point I am going to have to stop and let my people get on with their lives. When that happens, Corinth and a few other cities, notably Sparta will have to take up the slack. To that end, I have stopped whipping those two cities and have been growing them instead. Add a few workshops and they will be powerful. That's another thing to do Right Now. They have grown enough.

In sum, get the HE out of the way now. It's not like there is going to be an interlude, as you seem to imply. The wars don't stop before the game is won.
 
Hi :),

sorry for the delays... I got a busy week end...

ABigCivFan: A little weak for now but awesome production and science capabilities... All AIs behind... the game is almost over.

Abegweit: the game is over... impresive power!

Kaleb: Very good, but more workers could have been welcome, and also not totally ready for war

Jet: Very nice too, at war with Sury (the war with Cathy is delayed). The HE will be up next turn.

Carl: Another very good save! As Kaleb, you could have used more workers (also some cities are still small). The war with Cathy is well on its way... Just beware of Bismarck as he is growing in power.

Votes:
1 Abegweit
2 ABigCivFan
3 Carl Corey

I think all those 5 saves will lead to victories! :goodjob:

Cheers,

Raskolnikov
 
ABigCivFan said:
Many saves here are very well played, I call this game a win and will stop here. I hope everyone learned something.
Click to expand...

I learned a lot! Thanks to you and the others players of this thread :)
 
RRRaskolnikov said:
you could have used more workers (also some cities are still small).
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm struggling with that... I almost always forget to build more workers. I didn't in an offline game in which I ended up with 25 workers for 20 cities :crazyeye:, but that's the exception. As for the small cities, I guess I overused the whip. I was planning to switch to Caste System soon enough as I've got good tiles all over the place that need to be worked.

A question, related to this: if you don't plan on running too many specialists and so stay in Slavery until late in the game, when do you stop using the whip? Is a size 10 city worth whipping (yeah, I know, pretty vague, but work with me here) or is it better to let it work its tiles? Obviously if you're producing a unit every one-two turns from it without the whip then the whip's not needed. But how about commerce cities, where a) you don't have fast regrowth potential and b) have somewhat low production. Do you wait for the building to finish in its time (save for Universities needed for Oxford, etc), or do you whip it away? A more clear example: let's say you're building a market in a city with 2 mines and 8 grassland cottages (in the late stages of development, but without US bonus to towns). Would you still whip the market? Maybe only when it gets to a 2-pop whip?

I guess it shows that I'm more familiar with playing SE. Once I switch to CS in an SE game there's no option to whip anymore, or, when I do, it's short bursts into Slavery in which I whip everything, no matter how small the cities get.

Just beware of Bismarck as he is growing in power.
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I kinda put him there, didn't I? :) I could have bribed him to stop the war with Sury, and then Sury wouldn't have been his vassal. Probably should have done it, but at that moment he was quite far behind in tech and I didn't want to help him in that department, only to see him take on Sury again later. Anyway, that is indeed a point of concern in my save, and I'm constantly trying to keep Bismark happy. :)
 
@Carl: My input on whipping (not saying it's optimal ;)):

Exception of cities without a single mine, I try to whip only granaries, lighthouses, workers, and courts...
Then you have the emergency troops, the happy building in fast growing cities, and the culture building when you feel it's needed. With HR and drama, you can also produce the globe with overflow from troop whipping (strategy described very well in this forum)

About your example, I generally let grow my cities on cottages as much as possible... I prefer two more cottages worked than a market (of course, somtimes you have the 4 doubled luxuries...).

In the end, my focus is on "not whip too much my commerce cities", particularly the big ones (as you said the whip is less and less efficient as the city size is important).

Cheers
 
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