My mod is not a WWII mod, and in-fact has far more Industrial-Age focus then WWII by a VERY LONG SHOT.
I think you are severely underplaying Chiang's role in both the world and Chinese history... When Sun Yat-sen died in 1925, Chiang took control of the Kuomintang (KMT). To end the Warlord era and unify China, Chiang led nationalist troops in the Northern Expedition. After losing to the communist's post-war, Chiang moved the government to Taipei, Taiwan, where he formally resumed his duties as president on March 1, 1950. Chiang was reelected by the National Assembly to be the President of the ROC on May 20, 1954 and again in 1960, 1966, and 1972. He continued, as the President of the Republic of China, to claim sovereignty over all of China. In the context of the Cold War, most of the Western world recognized this position and the ROC represented China as a whole in the United Nations and other international organizations until the 1970s.
Yeah... I guess he was totally insignificant, and his role in Taiwan is all-about WWII... NOT.
I also vehemently protest the reference that my mod is essentially a "WWII mod" or that I only ask of Chiang for the purpose of my mod. My mod covers all time periods, but what I added to my mod was with few exceptions a vast number of industrial-age units, not WWII units. The fact I have ethnic/flavor art from WWII is no different then my having ethnic/flavor art from Ancient times or Medieval times. If you count the new units I added to my mod, roughly 90% are from the 1800s time-frame.
Chiang is both historically important and well-recognized by most of the players of Civ4, as opposed to much more obscure figure (rightly or not, Chiang is better-known then a lot of Chinese leaders). His role in world-affairs and as a player on the world stage both in WWII and the Cold War warrants attention and representation in the game.
1) I did not say your mod was essentially a WWII mod. I said that it has a lot of WWII (and post Industrial age, for that matter) content, which is why Chiang would fit in. Don't I always refer to your mod when it comes to Industrial Age stuff as opposed to WWII stuff?
Also, I never implied that you wanted Chiang for the purpose of your mod. I was just saying his inclusion can only be a plus. Two different things.
2) I'm quite aware of modern Chinese history, thanks. I'm of Chinese descent, and my family has strong ties with the Kuomintang that I even have a KMT party ring passed down to me from my grandfather. Considering I've written papers and read dozens of book on the Kuomintang, Sun, Chiang, and the Chinese Revolution, I think I'm familiar enough with the subject.
I never said Chiang was insignificant. Please point out where if I did. He
is a significant part of modern Chinese history, but my key point is that Sun Yat-Sen, the Father of Modern China is more relevant in the wider scope. Without him, the principles of the KMT and the RoC would not have been laid out, and the revolution against the Qing Dynasty would not have been as organized, but more fragmented.
Chiang was indeed a successful general, a more aggressive man that could do things that Sun could not do, and a key player for the time in between Sun's death and Mao's rise to power. Yet, that period was marked by failure, if you haven't noticed, by his loss to the communists, corruption within the KMT, and the final defeat by having to retreat to Taiwan. Not only that, he is often seen in a negative light in Taiwan because of his suppression of the people. His frequent elections were because of his near dictatorial style, not unlike the chairmen of the communist party. And why did the world recognize the RoC? Because they were fighting a huge war against communism, and it wasn't until the Sino-Soviet split that China wanted to realign its position in the world... hence the shift in UN recognition to the PRC. The RoC's role in the UN had nothing to do with Chiang (China was a permanent member because it was one of the 5 main allies of the war), but rather a war of idealogy.
If anything, Chiang's role can be best compared to Ulysses Grant, a great general, but inefficient leader. And while Grant just let corruption go around, Chiang adopted a more totalitarian approach. Either way, because of the time in history, his role is much, much greater. And for that role,
I keep pushing for him to be a leaderhead. So don't tell me I said he's insignificant in history. He's not, but he's not such a "great leader" that some make him out to be.
3) Sun's obscurity is simple. Who the hell learns about modern Chinese history these days? I sure didn't in school, and I doubt most Civ 4 players did either (I'll note as an aside my high school went over the
Russian Revolution though). Now, let me ask another question: Who learns about World War II? Everyone. The Cold War? Everyone. Even still, Chiang Kai-Shek is not as mentioned, but it's not too hard for people to come to know him after the
huge wealth of material and discussion on WWII.
I'm sorry, but you can't dismiss Dr. Sun due to popularity, because living in a Western society as we are, you're not gonna see much of him being mentioned at all. It seems to me that you're the one down-playing his role. Now put yourself in a Chinese state of mind. Hell,
any Asian state of mind, and they will tell you, no matter where they are from, that Sun is a damn important part of Modern Chinese history, as it begins with him.
As I mentioned in the LH topic, he is essentially the Lenin, the Atatürk (who inspired Sun), and the Gandhi of modern China.
And I will say it again. I would like to see both Sun and Chiang, but Darkstyx has decided to consider Sun Yat-Sen, so I'll support him for that in this topic. There are plenty of other people who've expressed interest in Chiang, but no one's ever offered to take up Sun until now, so I praise him for that.
