Lair Exploration, Revisited

imho, lair exploration should be a special feature of a unit instead of being available to any lvl1 warrior. I think that restricting this ability would also make it more interesting. for example, recon units should always be able to explore lairs ( to make 'em a bit more useful ) , and the same should be true for heroes. you could then change the "adventurer" promotion so that it is available with XP ( possibly only after you research tracking, currently kinda useless imho , and maybe even only after the unit got a couple drill promotions) and instead of giving better results it simply ALLOWS the unit to explore lairs. some unit lines should not be able to get it though ( siege for sure, possibly mounted and arcane ) . the courage spell could also grant that promotion for example, it makes sense. you could then give "better results from lairs" to a new hard-to-get "dungeon master" ( or whatever name you like ) promotion.

btw in the main FFH2 thread Kael mentioned he is thinking of having more powerful units grant better chances of success from lair exploration, which would be GREAT, finally an incentive to use high-lvl units to explore instead of weaklings ( just as it should be, imho ) . the latest features by Marnok are also great, for example he made it so that having a unit outright killed by a dungeon is now a lot more rare. this is very good since otherwise no one would ever risk a hero to clear a lair

I think you make some good points, Gekko. Is the Adventurer promotion you get in FF when you successfully explore a lair/dungeon broke? I certainly am not seeing better results with that promotion.

Yes, it's true you can use almost any unit to explore lairs/dungeons - I was surprised when I couldn't use a couple of the Scion special units.

Still, I really like the exploit of using an invisible unit like a HN Giant Spider to explore - especially inside the territory of another civ.

I don't think the adventurer promotion is broke, it's probably just a minor benefit right now. I'm not sure how it works exactly, but I'd guess it makes it so that a unit with such promotion will only get neutral or good results out of a lair. problem is, most of the events considered "neutral" are actually harmful ( barb spawning, negative promotions etc. ) so that's probably why you see no difference with or without it

Sarisin said:

Yes, it's true you can use almost any unit to explore lairs/dungeons - I was surprised when I couldn't use a couple of the Scion special units.

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Pelemoc, Themoch, or Melante? I think the spell's requirements rule them out.

[to_xp]Gekko;7506350 said:

I don't think the adventurer promotion is broke, it's probably just a minor benefit right now. I'm not sure how it works exactly, but I'd guess it makes it so that a unit with such promotion will only get neutral or good results out of a lair. problem is, most of the events considered "neutral" are actually harmful ( barb spawning, negative promotions etc. ) so that's probably why you see no difference with or without it

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It's "broke-ish". It works for Barrows, Ruins and the rare Giant Steading. It doesn't work for Dungeons or Goblin Forts (yet).

Tarquelne said:

Pelemoc, Themoch, or Melante? I think the spell's requirements rule them out.

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Yes, those were the ones as I recall.

BTW, if you are the culprit responsible for Scions I want to kill you. I played them in my first game and although there was a steep learning curve involved, it was such an interesting game and civ. Now, in my second game the computer gave me Decius/Malakhim to play and bleah - so boring compared to the Scions.

One good thing though is that the Scions are one of the remaining two AI civs in the game (the Archos are the others) and it is interesting to see their AI when you are not playing them.

Anyway, great job with that Scions civ - there is so much to learn and enjoy with them you don't want your game to end.

Sarisin: Hit CTRL+ALT+Z

[to_xp]Gekko;7506350 said:

I don't think the adventurer promotion is broke, it's probably just a minor benefit right now. I'm not sure how it works exactly, but I'd guess it makes it so that a unit with such promotion will only get neutral or good results out of a lair. problem is, most of the events considered "neutral" are actually harmful ( barb spawning, negative promotions etc. ) so that's probably why you see no difference with or without it

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Depends how it was scripted.

If its a % score then, a rand number is generated and compared to get your result, this rand could be added to + (x) for scout class, + (x) for adventurer promotion, or whatevewr plus or mius you feel like includding, so the normal unit cannot get above 100, but others can and this allows them to generate the ubbr results. 10th level paladins ( lkeval could be one of those things added to the random numbwer) dont go into dungeons to kill kobolds after all, they go after the demons....

Have a look at my newest Marnokmod. Then have a look at the one after that

What I am doing :
1. each lair result lives in a list, such as BigBad, Bad, Neutral, Good, BigGood
2. When a unit explores a lair, X results from each list are added to a pool. So, normally it is 1 bigbad, 2 bad, 3 neutral, 2 good, 1 biggood. In this way, I don't skew results just because I have a dozen options for Good and only 4 for Bad, the chances of good/bad are always balanced (and I don't have to rebalance every time I come up with a new lair event to add in)
3. The game then picks one result from the pool list and applies it.

This makes it easier to do things like, Adventurer Promo means +1 Good Result and -1 Bad Result, making the balance 1/1/3/3/1, more likely to be good than bad, but still a chance for bad. Avoids the problem of Adventurers either not being worth the effort, or breezing through dungeons because they can't possibly roll the worst results.

I am planning other adventurer promos, which perhaps increase the chance of clearing the lair, which allow an extra table to roll on SecretDoor (add 1 entry from the SecretDoor table to the pick-pool), Epic Adventurer who doesn't clear lairs unless the result is Epic, that sort of thing.

It would be easy enough to balance lairs so that Recon get -1 Bad to the pool so they can avoid traps, some units manipulate the pool in different ways. I recommend that pool values be floored at 1 so there is always a chance for a bad result (or a chance for good).

It would also be possible to put tougher lair types in - perhaps just copy the Improvement XML and create Dungeon_Hard, looks exactly the same to the player but adds +1 to Bigbad and +2 to Bad results.

Thanks for your explanations on what I consider to be one of the most fun aspects of this modmod and FFH.

A couple of questions if you don't mind:

1. Is this the same (results) for the 'normal' lairs/dungeons and the 'special' ones (Bradeline's Well, Pyre of Whatever, etc.)?

2. Not having looked at your list I think it has been brought up before than when a group of bad guys crawls out of the lair/dungeon it is considered a Neutral event? Is that true? With the almost sure result being the death of your explorer I'm having trouble seeing how it is Neutral.

3. Can a provision be made for non-repetitive results, particularly when it comes to items? Nothing is more frustrating than getting 2 or more Healing Salves that don't stack.

4. Would it be possible to slow down the assignment of a guard to the Lair/Dungeon? Exploration time is very short in raging barb games, and nothing is worse than getting to a Lair on Turn 3 or 4 with you Scout and finding it guarded by a Skeleton. Maybe this has nothing to do with your mod.

Again, thanks for adding this great feature to both FF and FFH!

You mean give him "the gift" right?

Sarisin said:

Yes, those were the ones as I recall.

BTW, if you are the culprit responsible for Scions I want to kill you. I played them in my first game and although there was a steep learning curve involved, it was such an interesting game and civ. Now, in my second game the computer gave me Decius/Malakhim to play and bleah - so boring compared to the Scions.

One good thing though is that the Scions are one of the remaining two AI civs in the game (the Archos are the others) and it is interesting to see their AI when you are not playing them.

Anyway, great job with that Scions civ - there is so much to learn and enjoy with them you don't want your game to end.

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One thing I would love in regards to lairs is less of the feeling that you have to rush for lairs at the start(and hit them mainly with scouts and warriors), before they all get explored and disapear. I would love to either have some lairs only appear with various techs, over time, or when your cultural borders cover them(you didn't notice the cave of the pretty reclusive "generic monster name" until your people were living nearby) or a mix of the above. This would perhaps reduce some of the random win/loss at the start, oh i just got a free great scientist, that pretty much means a win vs I just spawned a hero + 4 azers on turn 16, going to be time to restart if they walk the 4 squares to attack my capital.

I'll admit I grew up on MOM style lairs, where I really think (at least some) lairs should be someplace you should overcome some challenge(perhaps 4 air elementals are defending this lair, that becomes an air node when you defeat them), and then have most of a guarantee(perhaps not 100%, but more likely) of a boost. I admit that mixing this type of lair with the more random, less defended dungeons is cool as well, but I don't currently get the feeling that there are these epic lairs(the current "epic" lairs just seem to be more random, since you are going to get either a really good or really bad result and thus more likely to break the game if you explore one early).

Are there any plans to have more strongly defended lairs(perhaps even lairs that appear with massive defenders, like the dragons horde mechanic, I could personally see that becoming a lair rather than barbarian city mechanic), that either start the game out there or spawn over time?

Personally, i think dungeons should generate a research bonus to nearby cities. So then you don't want rival explorers plundering your dungeon and stealing all the rare artefacts your scholars are using for research.

someone mentioned in the main FFH2 thread that lair exploration should provide the exploring unit with XP, I definitely agree. possibly scaled depending on the result, like "nothing there"= 0 xp , while "your unit kills a very powerful unit" = sizable amount of xp .

units with 0 movements should also not be able to explore as well imho, since exploring takes away their movements, which means that often it's best to explore with 0 MP since you're otherwise wasting a turn. doesn't sound very fair.

having lairs appear in unsettled places "a la" barbarian cities would also be nice.

and I guess we could also have hard-to-find lairs, i.e. lairs that only get visible after a unit lands on that tile OR your cultural border expands there

edit: HN units should probably be unable to cause barbarian uprisings. think about it, it doesn't make much sense: HN unit explores lair, barbs get pi$$ed and come out to kill, then look at your unit and go "hail friend!"

Barbarians can still attack HN units.




I personally prefer making exploring lairs not take away movement or cost the ability to cast, but rather have a delay.


Lairs that couldn't be seen until a units gets close would be easy to implement, but making them visible when cultural boarders expand is a lot harder.

MagisterCultuum said:

Barbarians can still attack HN units.

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ouch! I didn't know that. I'll have to use HN more

I definitely agree that lair exploration should not cost the ability to cast for the turn. it's probably easier said than done, but one can always hope

It isn't hard to do at all. Just get rid of the <bHasCasted>1 tag. If you want to make it available after casting other spells too then add <bIgnoreHasCasted>1 while you are at it.

Of course, if you do that then you may be able to explore an unlimited number of times per turn, which is why I think that a <iDelay> is needed too. Logically it makes since for exploration to take a while. In my version it takes 2 turn to explore a lair but once the outcome is triggered the unit is free to run away or use spells to fight off the monsters immediately. This also means that you can have multiple units exploring at once, but if the lair is cleared or the unit is killed before the delay is up then the spell is just canceled. The held outcome effects every unit on the stack.

In my current MarnokMod, there's a limit of 1 exploration per lair per turn. Seems to work out OK.
I think losing your ability to cast other spells is fine - I imagine the casters are using all of their abilities to explore the lair, using the kinds of "minor" spells which are not big enough to be "game-mechanic" spells, but are all the things these spellcasters use on a tactical level.

I don't have lair-building in yet though it is fairly trivial, I do have a Clan ritual which causes a fresh lair to appear at a random spot, and certain mprovements which can be taken over (barbs can take control of a fort and turn it into a goblin fort; or make an unexplorable regular tower explorable).

I've not made my modmod FF compatible though I may make a modmodmod in the future, who knows.

It may be possible to return a float instead of an int from exploration results - the fractional part could be XP. So if you get a result of 75.1, that means 75% chance to clear the lair, 10 XP. 50.05 would be a 50% chance to clear lair with 5XP.

I've thought sometimes about a couple ideas I think would be flavorful and cool if they could be implemented; I'll just throw them out there.

First: city ruins of sufficient age (maybe 100 or so turns at normal game speed, outside of anyone's cultural borders) might generate an explorable feature (ancient ruins?) of some sort, either a static dungeon or a lair which generated barb units. The graphics wouldn't necessarily need to change (though they could); there would just be a lair/dungeon flag or whatever in the square that could be cleared as per normal exploration and the "city ruins" improvement could persist on the tile (and maybe grow a new lair/dungeon in another 100 turns).

Second: barb CITIES of sufficient age and/or size, such as - and especially - the city containing Acheron's lair, could also generate a dungeon. This probably wouldn't work on the city square itself but there may be a way to generate a dungeon adjacent to the city once it's taken (I don't know anything about XML or Python coding so I have no idea how easy or difficult this would be). The dungeon generated by the defeat of Acheron might be an "epic" dungeon with the reward for successful clearing being the Dragon's Hoard (rather than just having it laying around in the city).

And a thought on epic dungeons: In my first 043 game (patch A) I had the Broken Sepulcher within the cultural borders (3 squares away) of my capital (playing as Scions). Once I had explored it, the tool tip thereafter said "city must work to become Broken Sepulcher" and told me how many turns that would take. Good thing I built City of a Thousand Slums there... Kinda silly. Seems to me people (living or not) crawling all over the feature would tend to prevent much badness from building up there - not cause it to happen. I would vote for something like the 100 or so turns of NOT being within cultural borders mechanic I mentioned above for the dungeon to be reset...

And another thought on epic dungeons...and then I'll stop. I like Kjara's idea of heavily defended epic dungeons (and maybe more lightly defended minor dungeons; I miss MoM). Would there be any way to reinstitute something like that? I understand the tough defenders that existed before were taken away to prevent early-game sudden death, but could the toughest units, or first spawned units or something, be given the Shackled promotion or something so they stay on the tile? And maybe units like Barbatos, who otherwise bombards nearby players with summons, could be spawned/awakened by the player's attempt to enter the tile; if the player's unit dies the "awakened" Barbatos would now be free to wreak havoc until he quit seeing enemy (non-barb) units, at which time he would go back to sleep...

Marnok said:

In my current MarnokMod, there's a limit of 1 exploration per lair per turn. Seems to work out OK.
I think losing your ability to cast other spells is fine - I imagine the casters are using all of their abilities to explore the lair, using the kinds of "minor" spells which are not big enough to be "game-mechanic" spells, but are all the things these spellcasters use on a tactical level.

I don't have lair-building in yet though it is fairly trivial, I do have a Clan ritual which causes a fresh lair to appear at a random spot, and certain mprovements which can be taken over (barbs can take control of a fort and turn it into a goblin fort; or make an unexplorable regular tower explorable).

I've not made my modmod FF compatible though I may make a modmodmod in the future, who knows.

It may be possible to return a float instead of an int from exploration results - the fractional part could be XP. So if you get a result of 75.1, that means 75% chance to clear the lair, 10 XP. 50.05 would be a 50% chance to clear lair with 5XP.

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Have you thought of spawning lairs?, since the game initalises with dungeons, and they are improvemensts iirc, could not more be spawned during the game when certain techs are aquired, and a number of the next level of dungeons are spawned, or made visable by tech aquiring, i suppose if they are all generated at start, each level requiring a range of units level to enter, say 1-3, 4-6, 7+.