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Old Dec 09, 2008, 09:30 AM   #41
star_gazer
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Seems to be obvious that defensive strikes happen before combat. And really, what point would they be if they happened afterwards?
Yes but do they change the combat round odds for the combat?
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 10:50 AM   #42
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41. Removed the Bowyer building (all building requirements moved to Archery Range).
42. Removed the Bear Totem building (all building requirements moved to Training Yard).
43. Removed the Gallows building (all building requirements moved to Training Yard).
44. Removed the Machinists Shop building (all building requirements moved to the Sculptors Studio).
45. Removed the Hippodrome building (all building requirements moved to the Stable).
These I approve of, for the most part (would have been nice to keep the Gallows in some form); overall they reduce the need to waste time building things that only provide one or two units.

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46. Removed the Caminus Aurelus wonder.
This one makes me a bit sad to see it go. I rarely built it, but it was a cool wonder. I might re-add it for my personal use, maybe in a new form.

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47. Added the Perfect Sight promotion (requires Sentry 2, grants +50% vs illusions and the ability to see invisible).
48. Removed the Gridlines building.
49. Added the Adularia Chamber building (Luchuirp only, golems built in the city start invisible until their first combat).
50. Add the Pallens Engine building (Luchuirp only, golems built in the city start with the Perfect Sight promotion).
Hm... has it's ups and it's downs. Gridlines was very useful and I'm sad to see it go, but I like the new buildings. Still want the Velite Workshop and the one that gave Heavy back, though...

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54. Removed the Brewery building.
OW. Serious OW. Brewery is a very heavily used building for me; it's the reason capitals need to be next to a river, it's the best early game happy boost, and for the Dwarves it's even more important for that little bit of XP. I'm not sure why this removal was needed... couldn't the normal brewery coexist with the new national wonder?

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1. Archers (and UU's), horse archers (and UU's) and frostling archers get 20% defensive strike chance, 10% defensive strike damage.
2. Longbowmen (and UU's) and arquebus get 30% defensive strike chance, 15% defensive strike damage.
3. Crossbowmen (and UU's) get 40% defensive strike chance, 20% defensive strike damage.
4. All archer heroes get applicable defensive strike abilities.
5. Assassins (and UU's), Shadows (and UU's), Alazkan, Rathus and Shadowriders all get immunity to defensive strikes.
6. Each of the Drill promotions gives +10% defensive strike chance and +5% defensive strike damage (this can even get non-archers some defensive strike ability).
7. Shadowwalk also gives immunity to defensive strike.
8. Performing a Defensive Strike that successfully deals damage grants the unit +1 xp (to a max of 100).
This I like. Defensive Strike sounds like a fun mechanic that will make Archers considerably more deadly when gaurding cities and stacks. Also finally makes the Drill promotion a worthwhile choice.

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10. Magnadine can hire a variety of units in any Hippus city.
11. Werewolves are now unitcombat beast instead of unitcombat animal.
13. Barbarian units heal every turn (as if they had march).
15. Remove Forest moved form Bronze Working to Mining.
16. Remove Jungle moved from Sanitation to Bronze Working.
These are some of my favorite changes of the whole list. Magnadine really needed something special, I've been pushing for marching barbs as a way to make them more threatening for a while, and bumping back the cutting techs will really help stop forest starts sucking, not to mention making Bronze Working more of an optional tech and less of a "Get this or you lose" tech.

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17. Harlequin's lose mind and chaos magic and gain the Taunt ability instead.
This will annoy some people, but doesn't bother me overmuch. Will miss the Balseraph super-druids, though.

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25. Units level 2 and higher are immune to the death explore lair result ("you unit goes into the lair and never returns").
26. Explore lair results are slightly modified by the explorers level (the higher the level of the explorer the better chances of good results).
THANK YOU. This was needed in so many ways. Finally there's actually a reason to explore with higher level units... can't tell you how much it sucks to lose a really powerful unit to instant death. Especially when it doesn't make sense. I mean... "Just what was in that dungeon that a level 12 hero couldn't handle?"

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the changelog. I am certainly excited to see Ice finally come out, and am going to be playing the scenarios non-stop until I beat them all. ^_^
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 10:54 AM   #43
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THANK YOU. This was needed in so many ways. Finally there's actually a reason to explore with higher level units... can't tell you how much it sucks to lose a really powerful unit to instant death. Especially when it doesn't make sense. I mean... "Just what was in that dungeon that a level 12 hero couldn't handle?"
I invariably blamed it on grues. What else could make a meal of Hyborem himself, and yet not dare leave the goblin fort it was infesting?

EDIT: Also just noticed the Taunt ability. I never used Balseraph Druids before, so I'll not be missing that trick, and Taunt sounds like a perfect siege breaker.

Last edited by KillerClowns; Dec 09, 2008 at 11:00 AM.
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 11:33 AM   #44
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OW. Serious OW. Brewery is a very heavily used building for me; it's the reason capitals need to be next to a river, it's the best early game happy boost, and for the Dwarves it's even more important for that little bit of XP. I'm not sure why this removal was needed... couldn't the normal brewery coexist with the new national wonder?
I think the brewery was too useful and got axed for that reason, it made the grain resources far too important as they gave + 2 health and + 1 happy each, the same as the Fruit of Yggdrasil. It also forced you to build your major cities on rivers for the early happy boost. Also the extra XP was flavorful for dwarves but it made Kandros an absolute monster and was generally a boost that both dwarven civilizations didn't need. I think it's a good change.

I also wish that cottages would be moved to a first level tech or allowed to be built from the start of the game. But that's another idea for another thread.
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 11:40 AM   #45
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will guilds be reintroduced at any point?
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 11:49 AM   #46
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Am I the only one who's not going to notice breweries being gone? Things were bloody expensive, and by the time you have a big mature empire that can build them quickly and that has multiple grain resources, you also have public baths, religions and their buildings, etc.

The dwarves could get the same bonus with apprenticeship, and the two technically stacked but not really (4 exp doesn't get you an extra level.)
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 11:55 AM   #47
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Yes, but Dwarves are designed for ROK, which grants the "arate" civic.
Arate and apperencechip are in the same category.
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 11:59 AM   #48
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The dwarves could get the same bonus with apprenticeship, and the two technically stacked but not really (4 exp doesn't get you an extra level.)
Add conquest though (for 6 XP) and that's level 3 out of the gate.
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 12:11 PM   #49
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Am I the only one who's not going to notice breweries being gone? Things were bloody expensive, and by the time you have a big mature empire that can build them quickly and that has multiple grain resources, you also have public baths, religions and their buildings, etc.

The dwarves could get the same bonus with apprenticeship, and the two technically stacked but not really (4 exp doesn't get you an extra level.)

Er, sure they do. You are 1 xp away from level 3 instead of 3 xp, which means any combat (Even defending against a goblin in a city... not that uncommon) gives it to you.

And while breweries were a bit expensive, dwarves start with crafting, meaning they can be built before you get apprenticeship (Especially in a capital).

I'm sad because I would have liked to chop rush them not that mining becomes a significantly more valid 2nd tech (Gems in jungle, for instance, is now just bronzeworking away).
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 12:21 PM   #50
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Wow, the changelog looks great.

I wasn't expecting allmost all the scenarios to be released straight away, it will be hard to choose which ones to play first.

I've got to ask why the Through the Fire scenario was changed to the Radiant Guard though...
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 12:25 PM   #51
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...I've got to ask why the Through the Fire scenario was changed to the Radiant Guard though...
Dragonforce's lawyers called?
Maybe it was originally going to focus on the Bannor, but then switched to a Malakim focus. We'll find out soon enough.

Last edited by KillerClowns; Dec 09, 2008 at 12:45 PM.
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 12:26 PM   #52
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Khazad (or even all units starting with the Dwarven race) getting +1 or 2 XP if you have access to Ale would seem like a simple answer to the complaints about breweries, and be flavourful.
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 12:27 PM   #53
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Are units that are immune to first strikes also immune to defensive strikes?
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 12:32 PM   #54
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Yes, but Dwarves are designed for ROK, which grants the "arate" civic.
Arate and apperencechip are in the same category.
I don't base my gameplay decisions on the lore. I go with what works, whether it's thematic or not. The dwarves don't synergize all that well with RoK.

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Add conquest
Yeah I sure love it when building military units makes my cities stop growing.

The dwarves aren't spiritual (anymore) so it's not like they can just adopt conquest for short pre-war buildup periods.
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 12:42 PM   #55
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It all looks amazing I can't wait!
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 12:47 PM   #56
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Am I the only one who's not going to notice breweries being gone? Things were bloody expensive, and by the time you have a big mature empire that can build them quickly and that has multiple grain resources, you also have public baths, religions and their buildings, etc.

The dwarves could get the same bonus with apprenticeship, and the two technically stacked but not really (4 exp doesn't get you an extra level.)
Not going to miss it myself...

I just noticed that the Bowyer has been removed. Where are my archers going to get that extra +2 XP now?
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 12:57 PM   #57
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They'll go with your stack, and get two defensive strikes.

Quick question - Say a longbowman has the best defense in a stack, and so is the chosen defender. Does that longbowman also have a chance for a defensive strike?
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 01:06 PM   #58
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I just noticed that the Bowyer has been removed. Where are my archers going to get that extra +2 XP now?
They get 1xp per successful defensive strike now apparently. Which seems pretty ridiculously OP to me, as it's risk-free leveling (i.e. leveling without fighting and maybe dying), which to date has been only the province of spellcasters (infrequent and random) heroes, and vamps. We'll have to see how it plays out, but I'd imagine that 2 archers marched into barb lands and parked on top of a hill will level REALLY fast if you give 'em drill promos.
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 01:17 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Kael View Post
39. Added the Taunt spell (enemy units within 1 tile attack the casters stack, resistable).
When does the need to attack trigger? How will this interact when playing on simultaneous turns vs individual turns? I make use of both so I'm rather curious.

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Originally Posted by Kael View Post
41. Removed the Bowyer building (all building requirements moved to Archery Range).
42. Removed the Bear Totem building (all building requirements moved to Training Yard).
43. Removed the Gallows building (all building requirements moved to Training Yard).
44. Removed the Machinists Shop building (all building requirements moved to the Sculptors Studio).
45. Removed the Hippodrome building (all building requirements moved to the Stable).
I would have preferred that the various axed buildings be made more useful with new, flavorful abilities rather then simplifying things even further. Also gave my various military cities something to build late game other then units. Was there some feeling in the team that these buildings were unnecessary clutter or something?

When you say "(all building requirements moved to..." is that including the extra xp given from the Hippodrome and Bowyer?

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Originally Posted by Kael View Post
48. Removed the Gridlines building.
49. Added the Adularia Chamber building (Luchuirp only, golems built in the city start invisible until their first combat).
50. Add the Pallens Engine building (Luchuirp only, golems built in the city start with the Perfect Sight promotion).
That's...certainly unexpected. Are invisible golems going to be able to use fireballs without losing their invisibility?
Flavor-wise, I think it's a tad odd that the race now making the most out of invisibility are the ones specializing in making giant armies of clanking doom. Would have expected the Svartalfar of Sidar to get it as they still both seem to lack any mechanic that is in line with their subtle and sneaky nature (world spells don't count ).
Also flavor-wise, how does a sculpture's studio make a clock-work golem? This was one place in the game where a machinist shop fit perfectly and seemed like a necessary step.

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51. Added the Ale resource (+1 happy).
Give dwarves some xp for having this. Or add back breweries. Would prefer the return of breweries more. liked that little bit of early game strategizing.

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52. Added the Fine Clothes resource (+1 happy).
53. Added the Jewelry resource (+1 happy).
55. Added the Deruptus Brewing House national wonder (produces 2 Ale resources).
Weren't these already covered with dyes and gems? Or will these be produced by tailors and jewelers?

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55. Added the Deruptus Brewing House national wonder (produces 2 Ale resources).
Is this the only way to get ale in the game or is it found in the natural world?

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[2. Renamed the Forbidden Palace to the Summer Palace.
Very nice.

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A defensive strike does an average of the units Defensive Strike damage. But it is randomize and could be as little as 0 damage or twice that average. The number is modified based on the attacking units defensive strength and level and the unit performing the defensive strike is marked as having attacked.
CRAP!!!! As if my attempts to keep high level units and heros alive without constantly reloading wasn't difficult enough. Usually I can get away with attacking at only 99.9%. Usually. First strikes have always played havoc with this. Hence why I never get drill for my heroes. Did so recently with Rosier and was reminded why I didn't as he died with a 99.9%.

So....howzabout you edit the odds machine to show the worst possible outcome? Instead of assuming that 50% of the first-strikes hit, make it assume that none of your's hit and all of their's do. If a defensive strike is in the stack, make it so that the odds assume it also hit for maximum damage.
Yeah, I'll be seeing poorer odds then I actually have, but I would prefer this than too losing even more units at what seem to be favorable odds.

Overall, looks like it will be an interesting patch. Really not to keen on all the late game building cuts, but I'll just have to see how that plays. Thanks for all your hard works guys. Can't wait to try it all out.

Last edited by Fafnir13; Dec 09, 2008 at 01:22 PM.
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Old Dec 09, 2008, 01:33 PM   #60
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I'm quite stoked looking at this preview of what is to come. It looks like Ice is going to be serious fun.

One comment, is there any chance of getting Baron Halfmorn remade as a Doviello hero in the grand campaign? Thematically and in terms of balance, I think he's a perfect fit with them.
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