Version 2.6 discussion

Well, well... version 2.5 is just about ready so again it's time to look into the future.

At the moment I don't have any particular changes planned for v2.6 and I think this patch cycle will be purely based on your feedback so you can now start posting ideas and requests. Plenty of stuff has been already suggested in other threads and in private messages - based on those I've already started v2.6 patch and so far it has revamped ship movement and new naval promotion lines (6-7 new promotion lines so about 20 new promotions).

There is no timeframe set for this patch so it might be ready on spring or on summer as I'm making my other mod more from now on...

So keep posting, I'll read everything but unfortunately I don't have always time to reply to each post.

You said other day that you have discovered many new things in the XML files, right? What are those?

I already asked many things, but in the most of times I don't know what is modable and what's not, and I tend to concentrate in the realism of the game and forget about the playability.

So, do you think you can give us some orientation on what is easy, quick coding to you, then we focus on give ideas on these subjects? I mean, in what concepts do you want RoM developed?

About naval movement (and terrain units' too), a long time ago I criticized how CIV 4 simulates that. At that time, I gave an example about the trip to the New World taking 50 years, and the moving of my army from south to the north of my empire taking 10 years. I don't have any suggestions that doesn't benefit backstabbers, but I think this topic deserves discussion.

Oh, how I would love that Rapture component that was worked on for WoC. Unfortunately, it looks like it's development has stopped. Besides, it is a pretty major overhaul of the whole religion system, so that might prove to be a bit too much work anyways.

Good to see you are going strong Might i ask what this other mod is?

Let me see 2.6 features.. MAD nukes oh and make jeeps recon instead of blitzers!
of course i can change that myself. While im at it no grenadiers without riflemen and
one thing that has always annoyed me the ai always seems to go scientific method ->electricity-> radio for the wonders while it doesnt make sense "realisticly" needs more requirements if you ask me. all of this i can do myself if i get myself around to do it..

oh and keep up the good work

Freakwave said:

Might i ask what this other mod is?

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Lets just say, it will be a "Fantasy" of mine.

Clean up some of the double-tap tech prerequisites! Case in point, Compulsory Education requires Thermodynamics and Physics, but Physics is a prerequisite for Thermo. The tech tree's riddled with these (both of the either/or requirements for Compulsory Ed. require Physics, as well, for instance), and every one of these dual entries is something else to be held in memory while the game's running.

Not sure if any of these can be done or not.

- Make it so wooden naval units have to "port" in a city or in a natural harbor after so many turns or it will sink. Stuff like Work Boats and Galleys would require porting often, and Caravels and Galleons as well (would make island cities much more useful and is historically accurate). Steam and diesel ships would not need to port.
- Natural harbor terrain, which would be the same as a coastal tile but gives +1 more commerce and can port ships.

- Native and minor civilizations like in Rhye's mod. They would not grow into full-blown civilizations like the minor civilizations in Revolution, but would still try to expand. They would function just like barbarian cities, but they are not hostile unless you declare war on them. With the Apostolic Palace, attacking minor nations with the same religion as the chosen religion will result in automatic war with everyone of that religion (Crusades). With the United Nations, attacking minor nations will result in serious diplomatic problems with everyone.

- Some new leaderheads for pre-existing civilizations. Examples could be Vladamir Lenin (Russia), Theodore Roosevelt/Woodrow Wilson (a warmonger for America), Oliver Cromwell (England), Cicero (Rome), Ho Chi Minh (Khmer), Wu (China), Xerxes (Persia), Ptolemy (Egypt), Franz Joseph (Holy Roman Empire, represents Austria-Hungary), Abu Bakr (Arabia)

- Some new civilizations pre-packaged:
Mughal Empire (leader: Tamerlane)
Italy (leaders: Pope Innocent III (papal states), Benito Mussolini (fascist Italy)
Israel (leaders: Solomon (ancient), David Ben-Gurion (modern)

Big Heb said:

Not sure if any of these can be done or not.

- Make it so wooden naval units have to "port" in a city or in a natural harbor after so many turns or it will sink. Stuff like Work Boats and Galleys would require porting often, and Caravels and Galleons as well (would make island cities much more useful and is historically accurate). Steam and diesel ships would not need to port.
- Natural harbor terrain, which would be the same as a coastal tile but gives +1 more commerce and can port ships.

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You could also consider seeing if its possible to only allow ships to heal when parked in a friendly city and/or cultural border.

0100010 said:

You could also consider seeing if its possible to only allow ships to heal when parked in a friendly city and/or cultural border.

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There are already 4 steps in the "healing" process for any unit. Longest time to heal to shortest list: Enemy territory, neutral territory, inside cultural border, city.

I'm not sure I would like to have to pull back my fleet while in an extend "bombardment" phase prior to an invasion to "heal" in friendly territory/port. This would delay invasions for player and AI alike IMHO.

c0d5579 wrote;Clean up some of the double-tap tech prerequisites! Case in point, Compulsory Education requires Thermodynamics and Physics, but Physics is a prerequisite for Thermo. The tech tree's riddled with these (both of the either/or requirements for Compulsory Ed. require Physics, as well, for instance), and every one of these dual entries is something else to be held in memory while the game's running.

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But isn't this core to what makes RoM so unique and intriquing a Mod?

It makes so that you have to *plan* your research and IMO cuts down on the Tech rush that is the shortcoming of vanilla CIV IV and BtS.

On a different note I'm very glad zap has kept different components "selectable" vs "must play". Case in point for me, I don't like the REV Mod. I don't play it. But I do like the other components plus the Core RoM. (Personal preference and play style which keeps more ppl interested in the Mod imo.)

konradcabral has posted some changes he would like to see to culture. While I don't necessarily agrre with his assessment there is material there for consideration and discussion.

Lawrie and Big Heb have done a wonderful job on Civic choices and changes. But I think more refinement and scope focus is still needed.

Just some of my thoughts.

I really do Love this Mod. My only regret is that I can't Mod.

I have modded another game Master of Orion ]I[ and I miss the thrill of modding.

JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

But isn't this core to what makes RoM so unique and intriquing a Mod?

It makes so that you have to *plan* your research and IMO cuts down on the Tech rush that is the shortcoming of vanilla CIV IV and BtS.

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How is it planning that a technology requires Physics as one of four prerequisites, and two of those prerequisites also require Physics? I'm not saying to make Compulsory Education (since it's the horse I'm beating) require only Thermo or Civil, I'm saying that if there's a buried prereq, there's no need for an explicit one, and every line of XML that I have to store is one step closer to a CTD.

Balance out the financial civs so they aren't so powerful. They research at a ginormous rate due to the extra commerce they bring in. Is there some way to have hammers and/or culture a portion of the research? That would make it more interesting and give other ways to approach play. Right now, if you take a financial civ you have a definite advantage over the other civs. That research bonus gives them better units faster and a wider range of building sooner. It compounds as time goes on. Any ideas?

Well my main suggestion is what i suggested before with expanding the prehistoric techs. See the link below for more details.

Prehistoric Tech
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=301283

As for other minor suggestions ...

1. How about adding a Norse religion with Thor, Odin and Beowulf? Maybe have them be started by ship building tech or something viking-like.

2. Add shrimp! Got to have those shrimp boats.

Shrimp Resource
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8417

3. Is there a way to make a new "Terraforming" Tech where you can improve lots of land to better types of biomes, such as desert/tundra to plains or plains to grassland? Perhaps have this only possible with a special teraforming unit. Like a terraforming vehicle.

I'd like to see musk oxes (Civ II nostalgy! ) and the unit changes I proposed on this page: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=273368&page=25

Thanks!

Culturally linked starting locations as an option!

My suggestion is to include one of the best features of another mod (Total Realism) - the Holy City mechanic.

It worked as follows: firstly, each civ could only have a single holy shrine wonder (the one that gives you the extra gold). Secondly, unless the holy shrine was constructed, the holy city would switch at random (could be coded through an event) to another city of the same religion in any civ.

What this means in practice is that less technologically-advanced civs can (in time) get to construct a holy shrine of a religion that no-one else is following. It leads to increased religious distinctions, and acts as a rubber-band mechanic.

While I can see the game-mechanic value, how realistic is it? Religions with strongly defined Holy Cities - Islam, Judaism - have kept that Holy City for pretty much their entire histories. About the only major religion to "switch" their Holy City is Christianity, and last I checked, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was still one of the major holy sites, and Jerusalem one of the Patriarchates (matter of fact, to hear Constantinople tell it, the rest of us are filthy schismatics, but that's neither here nor there...).

Hydromancerx said:

Well my main suggestion is what i suggested before with expanding the prehistoric techs. See the link below for more details.

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I liked your suggestion, mainly the idea of an early culture tech. But 0100010 said wisely that in Civ people are capable of founding a city, so we have to be cautious with that.

Hydromancerx said:

1. How about adding a Norse religion with Thor, Odin and Beowulf? Maybe have them be started by ship building tech or something viking-like.

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Beowulf isn't from Nordic Mythology. He's an character from an ancient anglosaxon poem.

Hydromancerx said:

2. Add shrimp!

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This would be awesome. Salt should appears also at sea tiles, and be more common.
Just a few more resources, Zap...

c0d5579 said:

While I can see the game-mechanic value, how realistic is it? Religions with strongly defined Holy Cities - Islam, Judaism - have kept that Holy City for pretty much their entire histories. About the only major religion to "switch" their Holy City is Christianity, and last I checked, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was still one of the major holy sites, and Jerusalem one of the Patriarchates (matter of fact, to hear Constantinople tell it, the rest of us are filthy schismatics, but that's neither here nor there...).

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It's not wildly unrealistic. The idea is that the city does not properly become the holy city until the shrine is built there, 'setting' it so to speak. Until the shrine is built, the holy city moves around until it finds a spot and civ dedicated enough to spend a prophet and make it a holy city proper. Think christianity, founded in Israel, but that civ already had a holy shrine to judaism, so it moved around a bit til it reached rome and BANG.

Except that Rome isn't Christianity's "holy city;" that's my point. Jerusalem was the end of the pilgrimage trail before Papal supremacy was established in the 1350-1400 period. The Papacy wasn't even seated in Rome for extended periods, when it was at Avignon, and the pilgrim routes to Rome were even harder to manage than those to the Holy Land. If you're going to say Rome was the "holy city" of Christianity in the Middle Ages, then Santiago Compostela must also have been the "holy city," because it received more pilgrims than Rome and had more of an influence on Christianity's development than Rome during the Avignon period.

c0d5579 said:

Except that Rome isn't Christianity's "holy city;" that's my point. Jerusalem was the end of the pilgrimage trail before Papal supremacy was established in the 1350-1400 period. The Papacy wasn't even seated in Rome for extended periods, when it was at Avignon, and the pilgrim routes to Rome were even harder to manage than those to the Holy Land. If you're going to say Rome was the "holy city" of Christianity in the Middle Ages, then Santiago Compostela must also have been the "holy city," because it received more pilgrims than Rome and had more of an influence on Christianity's development than Rome during the Avignon period.

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No I meant more that in reality 'holy' cities of particular religions do change, for example in the case of Christianity as you point out (Avignon/Rome/etc). Anyways, I was more interested in the idea as a game mechanic. I find that when I am ahead in tech I can found all of the late religions (if I want) and then I can't resist micro-managely spreading them everywhere and spamming great prophets to maximise my gold. My proposal simply adds a rubber-band mechanic without sacrificing realism (quite the opposite I thought) and is possible to code.