2.6 Discussion - Religion

c0d5579 · Dec 22, 2008

Since religion is eating up so much of the 2.6 discussion thread, I thought I'd give it its own home. So here's what we have so far...

New Religion Suggestions
Asatru (or, alternately, Forn Sidr) - Norse mythology-based religion. Recommend Forn Sidr (even better if you can get the thorn character to display properly instead of a d) since it's a name with an actual historical record behind it.

Celtic Druidism - Unfortunately not a lot of historical evidence on this one, mainly because apparently they were forbidden to write anything down. Advent technology therefore prior to writing.

New Mechanic Suggestions
Schism Mechanic - No good way to implement this yet, but the game as-is doesn't reflect events like the Sunni/Shi'a split, the Reformation, or the Great Schism of 1052. Debate over whether this should be event-driven or civic-driven (see below). Event-driven schism probably easier to implement, but not as consistent in results.

Religion Civic Overhaul - I'll just give the alpha post here; beta through omega, go read the original 2.6 thread.

I like cultural civics too, but I also think they should be separate. As for religion, here is what I have come up with after some thinking.

#1 - There is a "Master" religion civic called Identity, this controls the overall disposition and outlook of your civilization toward religion.

Atheist: This is enabled by default. Represents the complete absence of all organized religion. Enabling this civic locks all other religious civics.

**** A note on atheist --- Sounds unfair, but in reality there is no way to give religious based modifiers to an atheist society, but I don't feel that this means you can't give bonuses to those that do pursue religion. Honestly, there is not a single society in the history of organized human civilization that I can recall that was actually a legitimately atheist society. Even in cases of religions being outlawed, people don't stop believing, they just stop outwardly practicing. For those looking to run a non-religious civ, see secular below.

Secluded: This represents a civilization whose religious views look only inward and care nothing for outsiders. Xenophobic & hateful of others, but non aggressive and content to leave alone and be left alone. This is available upon establishing your first religion, the rest are researched.
Evangelical: This represents a civilization whose ultimate religious goal is the conversion of every person and spreading it's faith to every corner of the globe, for better or worse.
Intolerant: This represents a civ completely closed off to other beliefs and outwardly hostile to non-believers.
Pious: This represents a civ in which religion is seen as a tool for doing good and each man humbles himself to his faith in the name of serving the greater good, even gladly sacrificing their own health or happiness to do so.
Secular: This represents a civ that takes a hands off approach to religion. The state is seen as the ultimate authority on all matters and the church (if any exists) has no legal powers.

**** A note on secular. I figure the easiest way to answer your earlier question is allow to religion to be completely organic and evolve into whatever you want it to be. That said, the possibility of a society going through a secular phase cannot be ruled out. Therefore, better to build around it than ignore it. To do this, I propose that with secular enabled choices in the remaining religious civics will be limited to choices that are more compatible with secularism. Each category below has choices that are allowed with Secular. Obviously any bonuses assigned to those should be synergistic with w/e bonuses are assigned to secular itself.

After Identity, the first sub-category is Structure. At what level is the faith organized?
Individual: Enabled by default, allowed with secular. Each person is responsible for their own faith. People may or may not go to central worship locations but it is a private affair with no public services. Most worship is done at home or away from others.
Family: Allowed with secular. Extended families form clans, and clans group together to form tribes. Religious education and worship is mostly handled within the family with none to some intercession from a religious body.
Local: Religion is centered around the community. A community has it's parish/district/temple/etc.. and it is the center of all religious activity. The leader of the local religious establishment is ultimately responsible for all matters of faith in the community and have discretion over their parishioners.
Regional: Like local, except that groups of communities are organized into regions, each with it's own central leadership. The regional leader is the final authority in his region on religious matters.
Centralized: Control is asserted through a centralized structure, with authority delegated out to several levels of clergy below an executive authority. There are no regional or national boundaries that limit the central authority.

Next category is Message. This category is different because all options are enabled upon founding your first religion. This is meant to essentially sum up the core meaning of your religion in a single concept. Bonuses for this should be minor at best since no research is required. Since these are meant to really signify the ingrained behaviors and values I was talking about earlier, all are allowed under secular.

Improvement: Represents a faith based around self improvement and happiness. Minor happiness bonuses and/or minor % to improvement or building speed.
Salvation: Represents a faith based around the idea of forgiveness and redemption. Minor production or GP % bonus.
Knowledge: Represents a faith based on the pursuit of knowledge. Minor science or commerce bonus.
Glory: Represents a faith based on conquest and victory over adversity. Minor military unit production or great general emergence%
Tradition: Represents a faith based on honoring the past and that which is established. Minor bonuses to religious buildings, monuments, cetain wonders.

Next category is Belief System. This describes what the people worship.

Tribal: Enabled by default. Allowed with Secular. This represents basic, loosely defined mysticism. No creator god.
Druidism / Nature Worship: Allowed with Secular. Represents a faith based around the worship of the Earth or it's various components as spiritual or divine. No creator god.
Ancestor Worship: Allowed with Secular. Represents a faith based on the reverence of one's ancestor's and living one's life in honor of their memory. No creator god.
Polytheistic: Worship of a pantheon of gods/goddesses.
Monotheism: Worship of a single god.

Next is Influence. This attempts to define how the religion interacts with society as a whole.

Oral Tradition: Enabled by default. Allowed with secular. This shows the earliest and most basic form of religious influence, with stories/legends being the primary source of information relayed by word of mouth over the years.
State Church: Religion is controlled and funded by the state, but the church remains an organization within a larger government.
Free Church: Allowed with Secular. Religion is privately controlled and funded.
Theocracy: Not only is religion controlled and funded by the state, it IS the state. Civil government does not exist, the church is the law.
Rational: Allowed with secular. Religion is viewed as a guide and counselor but not always to be taken literally. People in this model prefer science and logic when a firm answer is required.

Finally, last category deals with Afterlife
Mystical: Enabled by default, allowed with Secular. Represents a very basic and primitive concept of life and death.
Reunion: Allowed with secular. Represents a concept of becoming one with the earth and/or one's maker.
Reincarnation: Represents the concept of rebirth either indefinitely or finitely defined by some criteria.
Spiritual: Allowed with secular. Represents the idea of life after death but with no organized afterlife. Dead people come back as spirits and those spirits inhabit the earth along with the living.
Paradise: The traditional "heaven" if you will.

Anyways, that's all I got for now, it's reallllllllly late so i'm sry for any spelling errors or crap grammar, my internal "give a crap" switch got stuck off awhile ago

---

So that's what we have right now. I'll add my notes about event ideas down the line. Some of these are pretty straightforward - steal the "found witch" event from FFH2, for instance.

Complex · Dec 22, 2008

Here is the current rough draft....

***Note that ideally, the "rebelliousness" discussed in this post is intended to be separate from political rebelliousness.

Structure - How is the religion organized from a logistical perspective? What is the primary focal point of the faith?

- Individual - Default civic, 1 :culture:

in ALL cities, 1 :culture:

in Holy City
- Family - 1 :hammers:

in city with state :religion:

, 2

in Holy City, decreases local rebelliousness, increases national rebelliousness. [The hammers represent the work that the family does in name of tradition/religion, like in Ancient China where the family unit was more important than the individual, and was for the purpose of production/agriculture].
- Local - 1 :science:

in city with state :religion:

, 1

1

in Holy City, decreases local rebelliousness
- Regional - 1 :culture:

in cities with state :religion:

, 10% increased yield from trade routes in cities with state :religion:

, decreases local rebelliousness, decreases national rebelliousness
- Centralized - [must have AP or Holy City] 1 :culture:

1

in cities with state :religion:

, 2 :cuture: 2 :commerce:

in Holy City AND AP city (if different, else bonus stacks)

Message What is the prime message or goal of the religion? These are all available upon founding your first religion [All of these require state :religion:

in the city to have an effect]

- Improvement - adds 1 happiness in cities, 2 with Holy City
- Salvation - adds a certain :hammers:

percentage. Not sure what would balance well. Increased with Holy City, also increases :gp:

percentage.
- Knowledge - adds a :science:

certain percentage. Not sure what would balance well. Increased with Holy City
- Glory - adds a certain military :hammers:

percentage. Increased with Holy City, also increases chance of Great General.
- Tradition - adds a certain :culture:

percentage. Increased with Holy City

Belief System - What is the core of the religion's theology? What is worshiped? These are meant to be more focused on building related bonuses and buffing existing wonders relevant to that belief system.

Tribal - default civic, +1 :culture:

from Healer's Hut and/or +1 :hammers:

from monument, +1 happiness in all cities from Stonehenge

Ancestor Worship - +1 :science:

from Library, +1 :culture:

from Theater Having trouble thinking a good wonder to buff though, I'll look at the pedia later on and see what makes sense.

Dualism - +1 :science:

, +1 Happiness from monastery. -10% war weariness in all cities with either Olympic Games or Circus Maximus.

Polytheism - +1 happiness, +1 health from Market. I was going to recommend buffing the Parthenon but it has a religious restriction on it so instead I vote some kind of extra buff for Temple of Artemis / Statue of Zeus.

Monotheism - +1 :hammers:

, +1

from temple. Having trouble making a decision on a wonder here.

Influence - How does the religion interact with society? [too many graphics in my post lol, 30 seems a bit low]

- Mythology/Oral Tradition - default civic, decrease science %, increase culture %, no missionaries, only spread along roads/rivers/trade routes
- Evangelical - decrease science%, increase culture%, lower cost for missionaries, increases rebelliousness per other religion in the city
- Intolerant - -25% War unhappy, 1 unhappy per other religion in the city, no spread of other religions, lower cost of missionaries, inquisitors, and military units, 1 happy when warring with other religion
- Pious - +25% war unhappy, 1 hammers, 1 happiness in cities with state religion, 2 hammers in Holy City. Lower building cost for temple, monastery, cathedral.
- Rational - increase science%, increase hammers %, decrease culture%, +25% war unhappy

Afterlife

Still working on this one. Looking for a civic system that allows you to choose one option upon founding a religion and are then "Locked" into that choice for the duration of time that the religion is your state :religion:

. Can only be changed by switching religions.

jm_dracolich · Dec 22, 2008

Sweet, it's own thread.

But hot damn I missed a lot while I was asleep.
Lots of discussion....
2.5 is released....
And to think, I had nothing to do yesterday except do Civ things, and now I'm busy all day today. :rolleyes:

Oh well.

I sure hope Zap takes this idea though
It didn't seem like he did in the 2.6 thread.

c0d5579 · Dec 22, 2008

Okay, religion events. Some of these are only half-formed, so no promises.

Mystery Cult
Triggers: Prophets, Divine Cult
Event: A mystery cult devoted to a local divinity arises in (city).
Options:
* Crush the cult! (1 turn disorder in city, -1 Happy for short period)
* Military cult (e.g. Mithraism) (+1 Experience to new units in city)
* Fertility cult (e.g. Isis) (+1 Food in city)
* Bacchanalia (+1 Culture in city)
* Support the cult as an official part of government (Switch to State Church with attendant revolution if technology is available)

Holy Man
Triggers: Prophets
Event: A holy man comes down from the wilderness to preach his visions in (city).
Options:
* He is clearly mad; ignore him. (Chance of disorder, can continue as per slave revolt)
* He is a danger to the throne! (e.g. Socrates, John the Baptist) (1 turn disorder, -1 Happy for short period)
* He speaks the truth, support him! (-(x) Gold, receive Great Prophet)

Master Theologian
Triggers: State, Free, Intolerant. Higher chances with Monastery, Temple, x2 for Cathedral
Event: A master theologian has arisen within your borders, causing a re-evaluation of your faith's tenets.
Options:
* Heretic! (1 turn disorder, -1 Happy for short period)
* Genius! (Receive Great Prophet in city, -(x) Gold)
* Reason dictates faith! (e.g. Socrates, Teilhard de Chardin, Loyola) (Receive Great Scientist in city, -(2x) Gold)
* Conversion! (e.g. Loyola) (-(2x) Gold, convert (y) cities to your faith)

Faith Incorporated
Triggers: Secular
Event: A (x) preacher travels your country, bringing in the faithful and gathering contributions!
Options:
* ... And? (No effects)
* So long as he pays his taxes, he can do whatever he wants! (+1 Gold in cities with (x) religion, -1 Happy per religion other than (x) per city)
* Embrace his faith but not his message. (Convert to (x) religion, -2 Happy per religion other than (x) per city)
* Embrace faith and message. (Convert to (x) religion, +(y) gold per city per religion other than (x), -1 Population per religion other than (x) per city, purge religions other than (x))

Monastic Order
Triggers: State, Free, Intolerant, Monastery in city
Event: A major monastic order is founded in your city.
Options:
* ... And? (No effects)
* Local holy center (e.g. Mount Athos) (+(big bonus) Gold, +2 Culture in (capital or holy) city, -(x) Gold)
* Economically-oriented order (+1 Gold, -1 Culture in all cities with monastery)
* Militant order (+1 Experience, -1 Gold in all cities with monastery)
* Scientific order (+1 Science, -1 Gold in all cities with monastery)
* Cultural order (+1 Culture, -1 Gold in all cities with monastery)
* Evangelical order (-(x) Gold, convert (y) cities)

Complex · Dec 22, 2008

Cool!!

These all sound really good, I'll see if I can come up with more. Got a couple busy days of work but then vaca

so I should have plenty of time to come up with some stuff.

c0d5579 · Dec 22, 2008

A note about a couple events described above...

Mystery Cult - Most cultures functioning under the trigger conditions would have only crushed the cult if it was actively revolutionary in nature - the Yellow Turbans of late Han China, for instance. Hence there aren't really any negative connotations attached to the other choices.

Faith Incorporated - If a civilization switches to a religion under Secular, it also needs to switch civics. Civ has no good mechanic for doing this, so a better way of handling it would be that Faith Inc. uses whatever your state religion was before going secular, and switches to Free Church.

Monastic Order - Probably better if the militant order switched to losing culture rather than gold; not like the Templars were really known as spreaders of culture. There are decent examples of most of the others, though most monastic orders in the West were a mixture, or migrated over time from one to another.

Shai_Halud · Dec 23, 2008

Complex said:
Afterlife

Still working on this one. Looking for a civic system that allows you to choose one option upon founding a religion and are then "Locked" into that choice for the duration of time that the religion is your state . Can only be changed by switching religions.

I can think of a few classifications of afterlives, but I'm not totally sure what to call all of them.

1. Netherworld/Spirit-Realm - all dead arrive here regardless of who or what they were in life. Netherworlds tend to mirror the world of the living and are often believed to intertwine with our world. Often, spirits in the Netherworld are believed too carry on as they did in life: farming, hunting, trading but it is often expressed as being somewhat meaningless as the participants are now dead. Spirits are also often described as walking among the living, but in secret, usually coming out at night or on certain occasions. Known to have existed in Sumeria as well as among various Native American Tribes. The Jewish concept of Sheol could also be considered a form of Netherworld.

2. Underworld - Almost all people arrive here. Quality of life here is determined by the gods based on their opinion of you. There are nicer and worse places for those the gods admire and hate. Central to this belief is that the autocratic rule/whim of the gods determined your fate. Your heart being lighter than a feather may get you into the afterlife, but only because Osiris considered that a fair test of a man's metal. Social status and decent could also determine your afterlife as nobles are often more favored by the gods or descended from the gods themselves, thus they have a chance of being welcomed into heaven. Egyptianism and Hellenism both ascribe to this.

3. Based on Manner of Death - Here, your afterlife is directly determined by how you die. Those who die in battle or childbirth, for instance often ended up as lesser gods in heaven. Those who died of sickness or drowning became servants of the rain gods. Children who die in the womb live in an eternal garden and will be used to repopulate the earth after the next great destruction. Nothing you do in life can reliably alter your afterlife experience, though your general range of activities may help in determining the manner of your death. Put simply, you won't die in battle unless you fight your enemies (else you were simply murdered) and you can't die in childbirth if you don't bear children. Aztecs and the Norse both ascribed to this form of belief. The idea of suicide bombers being graciously received into heaven and that suicide results in damnation may also be seen as forms of this belief.

4. Reincarnation - This idea basically speaks for itself. However, to define it more specifically, though many cultures believed that certain individuals could pass down parts of their spirits or were reborn again and again in times of need, this category refers to the belief that everyone is reincarnated regardless of who they are and that, though spirits may pass through several supernatural realms before being reborn, no form of afterlife is permanent. The religion may teach its followers to seek an end to reincarnation, however, that end is generally not something which could be considered an afterlife, but rather a lack thereof. Hinduism and Buddhism both practice this belief.

5. Reward and Punishment - This is the idea that there exists both a pleasant and unpleasant form of afterlife and that "good" people go to the pleasant afterlife while "bad" or "evil" people go to the less pleasant of the two. Being good or bad may be determined by your actions, your character, your ethnicity, your destiny, your participation in certain rituals, the prayers of your loved ones, or any combination of these. Central to this idea is that the will of God or the gods cannot change what afterlife you experience. The nature of good and evil is woven into the very fabric of the universe itself and evil pulls one down as surely as gravity. Even absolute, monotheistic gods cannot or will not interfere. Heaven and Hell are even sometimes considered to be the same thing, the presence of God. However, those who love God experience bliss, and those who fear and hate him experience anguish. Christianity, Islam, and Zoroastrianism all practice this belief in different forms.

6. Immortalism/Mummification - This is a rather rare belief. It consists of the idea that people can somehow remain alive in a physical form for all eternity. Usually, this involves alchemy or mummification. Egyptianism, does not qualify as a form of it, mainly because it holds that the dead travel to a spiritual world separate from this one, even if they must return to their bodies each day to rest. The only pure form of it I can think of is the Inca death cult which considered death not to be the end of life, but rather, as a process of transformation into a more permanent, sustainable form. Their dead became natural mummies high in the Andes and these mummies were believed to interact with the world using magical powers. They retained property after death and were regularly consulted on important issues. Various beliefs in the "Elixir of Life" which have surfaced throughout the world could also be seen as a form of this afterlife as could any attempt to use science to extend life indefinitely. Thus Taoism and Christianity insofar as they both once sought the Elixir of Life, may be said to ascribe to this belief. It tends to occur sporadically and die out if a method of life extension (such as mummification) is not soon found.

You can try and figure out how to apply this to the game. If anyone can think of an afterlife not represented here, please reply. The only other possible forms I can think of are Abysmalism (the belief that the soul ceases to exist after death) and using computers to turn a human personality into an intelligent program which could then interact with the outside world through machines or live on in a virtual fantasy world of their own creation. Maybe we could call it "Matrixism".

Soul oWar · Dec 23, 2008

I don't know if this had come up, I just joined the conversation. But all that could only be set by the Religion founder? If so what would happen if you found more than one religion?

c0d5579 · Dec 23, 2008

So far, the working premise is that you can change the religious orientation of your state religion if you have one, and if you don't it's fixed at whatever the last settings you used were.

Complex · Dec 23, 2008

I only briefly touched on this in the other thread.

Ideas...

Netherworld - Sounds good

Underworld - Like it

Based on Manner of Death - Not so sure about this one. Good idea, yes but if you look closely enough, you'll find that almost every religion contains some exceptions regarding the afterlife for certain types of death. Also, it could intertwine with #2 because the manner in which you die may greatly affect how the gods perceive your worthiness.

Reincarnation - This was already mentioned. Obviously should be included.

Reward and Punishment - Again, another obvious one that was mentioned. Only suggestion would be a cooler name. I had originally suggested salvation for this form but if you wanted to imply a dualistic nature than maybe Salvation/Damnation?

Immortalism - Gotta be honest, not a fan. Here's why, this sort of belief can exist only in the absence of modern science. It is different from the others in that all of the others believe that spirit goes somewhere. Because all of the others claim the spirit goes to some intangible, mysterious realm, it is not possible to 100% scientifically disprove the existence of an afterlife. In this case though, belief requires faith in "magic", something that really goes into a tailspin after scientific method, biology, chemistry, etc, etc.

Also, I had suggested an idea called "Reunion" to signify a belief that the dead simply become one with nature/Earth/universe upon death. Maybe there's a better name though...

Complex · Dec 23, 2008

Sorry, double post I know.

c0d5579 said:
So far, the working premise is that you can change the religious orientation of your state religion if you have one, and if you don't it's fixed at whatever the last settings you used were.

Sort of.

You found your very first religion. Immediately, two of the columns are completely available, Message & Afterlife. You can change message as you change any other civic, much like how the Christian faith preached piety in it's early days, conquest and glory during the crusades, and today tends to focus more on the aspect of forgiveness and salvation. Afterlife however, once you select an option that option is "locked" to that religion only in your country.

So for instance, two nations with the same faith can disagree over what happens to you when you die and this is meant to further tie in with the "religious unhappiness" I talked about in the other thread, eventually leading to a schism.

Also, let's assume you found a religion and you choose 'Reincarnation' as your afterlife. Now any other civ adopting your religion will be advised something like:
"The faith you are about to adopt requires you select an Afterlife civic. <Religion_name> is currently running <Afterlife_civic>, it is recommended (but not required) that you choose the same to avoid unhappiness or a religious schism."

In the event that you drop, then re-add a religion later on as your state religion, then the afterlife choice would be set to where you left it with that religion, but would be unlocked and allow you to change it ONCE before locking again. Something along the lines of a religion making a huge comeback in society, but the now more advanced society re-considers some of the religion's earlier assumptions.

All the other religious civics work the same as ordinary civics. Although I think a 2 turn grace period should be allowed after converting religions to change your religious civics free of anarchy (regular civics still cause anarchy). Seems silly to have to revolt once for the faith, and again to line up your beliefs.

Shai_Halud · Dec 23, 2008

Complex said:
I only briefly touched on this in the other thread.

Based on Manner of Death - Not so sure about this one. Good idea, yes but if you look closely enough, you'll find that almost every religion contains some exceptions regarding the afterlife for certain types of death. Also, it could intertwine with #2 because the manner in which you die may greatly affect how the gods perceive your worthiness...

Immortalism - Gotta be honest, not a fan. Here's why, this sort of belief can exist only in the absence of modern science. It is different from the others in that all of the others believe that spirit goes somewhere. Because all of the others claim the spirit goes to some intangible, mysterious realm, it is not possible to 100% scientifically disprove the existence of an afterlife. In this case though, belief requires faith in "magic", something that really goes into a tailspin after scientific method, biology, chemistry, etc, etc...

Also, I had suggested an idea called "Reunion" to signify a belief that the dead simply become one with nature/Earth/universe upon death. Maybe there's a better name though...

I agree, one of these needs to be cut. I wouldn't immediately rule out immortalism though, as modern science can sustain a person's life functions almost indefinitely through life-support machines. A religion which glorifies this as a form of immortality is not beyond imagination. Also, just because we can prove the mummies do not make the crops grow does not mean that people can't believe that they do. They may tell themselves that the spirits of the mummies inspired people to create fertilizer (it's better than accepting death). Empiricism is not universally accepted and science cannot force people to hold reasonable beliefs. Many Christians believe that angels or God make their crops grow larger, and there have been instances where I was tempted to believe them. But, like I said, once the belief in immortalism is adopted, science must advance rapidly to offer hope of extended life, otherwise rebelliousness would increase tenfold. I agree that Manner of Death could be combined with Underworld.

However, I'm not sure I like the idea of reunion. I am not aware of any religion which believes in the simple reabsorbtion of the soul. While Hinduism, Islam, and Christianity all could be said to believe that the soul becomes one with God after death, all three have different ways of characterizing that experience which can be defined using other forms of the idea of afterlife (Reward/Punishment or Reincarnation for instance). Indeed, heaven, hell, and reincarnation can all be seen as reunion with God. Also, the Aztecs believed that souls which died of natural causes journeyed through the underworld for four years and then were dissolved and recycled as raw material for the Gods (as we were made from their blood, so we return to their bodies). The idea of reunion is really just an oversimplification of several other forms of afterlife and does not exist in any religion as a standalone belief. The idea that the individual's consciousness is reabsorbed after death and ceases to function as an individual but rather as a part of the whole is rather a mystical form of Abysmalism as the person cannot be said to experience "life" after death. If they do continue to exist in any distinguishable form, they do so in the form of shrouds and any action they perform would be meaningless, thus, I would term this a form of the Netherworld belief with the netherworld as an extension of God himself (perhaps his dreams).

Still, we need a fifth belief, so I'd go with Abysmalism. Some sects of Judaism as well as certain major rabbis have posited that true Jews do not believe in an afterlife. They claim that Sheol, meaning "The Tomb", is really just a metaphor for the cessation of the soul's existence after death. Several Old Testament scriptures seem to agree with them, though I don't personally know any Jews who do. Also, if one views Communism as a religion (which I tend to do. Substitute the words "the people" for "God" and you'll get what I mean) then one might say they also believe there is no afterlife, a fact they teach to children repeatedly in Chinese schools.

c0d5579 · Dec 23, 2008

"Nihilism" might be a better name than "Abysmalism," as there's no abyss that we're entering; rather, a state of nothingness. To be honest, there's a very significant overlap between Reunion and Nihilism; in one, we lose all individuality to become part of a greater whole, in the other, we just go away. Really, the difference between "he is returned to the soil" and "shadows and dust" isn't that great.

Nihilism has good historical footings, as well - the belief that after death, for the most part, you were just gone was fairly typical among upper-class Romans (what the plebs believe is up to them, see the deification of pick-a-Caesar). As you pointed out, it's also one of the base tenets of most communist countries that after death, you're fertilizer.

Shai_Halud · Dec 23, 2008

so, basically: replace Mystical with Underworld, replace Spiritual with Netherworld, replace Reunion with Nihilism (or whatever we decide to call it), and keep Reward/Punishment and Reincarnation.

I still think Abysmalism sounds cooler, and besides, "Abyss" is just another word for nothingness. It was never meant to refer to an actual place. That and I'm pretty sure Nihilism refers to a certain philosopher's name and thus might not be the most exact name for the belief. Voidism or something referring to the word "void" would likely be the best term as void means null as in the nullification of the soul and is often used to refer to Nirvana and other spiritual concepts of emptiness. I think Reward/Punishment is a good, neutral name, but we could replace it with a name referring to the more central idea of the belief: that the quality of your afterlife is determined by a moral code, or your adherence to one, and not necessarily by the will of God. Just an idea.

Still, I'd like the numerous attempts to obtain immortality that we find throughout history to be represented in the system somehow. Perhaps a new quest. The firs one to discover a random technology achieves something that their civilization believes is equivalent to immortality (mummification, elixir of life, bio-mechanization, etc.) causing their country to gain happiness as long as they continue to practice their current state religion and all other countries or religions suffer temporary unhappiness. It could also influence the growth of that religion.

c0d5579 · Dec 23, 2008

No, "nihilism" comes from the Latin "nihil," meaning "nothing;" as in "ex nihilo," or "from nothing." That's why I suggest it.

Complex · Dec 23, 2008

@ Nihilism - I don't think this is a good thing to bring into the religious fold. Remember that Nihilism also describes a philosophy in which existence itself is meaningless and morality does not exist. These philosophies are more commonly associated with the deconstruction of religions, not inclusion with them.

@ Reunion - Perhaps a poor choice of words. Let me explain what I was going for. All religions and most cults for that matter at some point in their theology address the question of "What happens to me when I die?". There is not a single faith on Earth that shrugs it's shoulders and says "I dunno". Some have more elaborate ideas than others, but ALL have an answer. The lack of any answer to this question, imo, is a fundamentally secular position and therefore has no bearing on religion.

Yes, there are belief systems that adhere to this concept. For instance, Taoists do not believe in an afterlife so to speak, they simply believe that death is a transformation from being into non-being and that while the expression of one's life occurs while the person is alive, upon dying nothing really changes except that person is re-absorbed into the omnipresent and unchanging Tao. Going back to a point I had mentioned in a previous post about religious values being ingrained in a society over time, if you consider China's Taoist roots and the innumerable generations those beliefs were passed to, it makes perfect sense that Chinese schools would teach there is no afterlife, although it has more to do with inherent cultural beliefs than the current government in power. However, this does not mean they do not attempt to answer the question of what happens when you die. In fact you can even take it a step further and argue that these cultural beliefs are part of the reason why communism is so successful in Chinese culture.

@ Immortalism - The idea of modern life support keeping people alive indefinitely to be revered and consulted would not be valid unless the religion was founded after the advent of such technology. Even then, not even the best modern technology can keep someone alive if their heart was shredded to bits by a spear through the chest, or who has been decapitated. Aside from this, there is a more fundamental problem with this concept.

A system like you describe where dead relatives and friends are preserved, worshiped, and consulted for help/advice, essentially describes a belief system more than an actual afterlife. It doesn't really answer the question of what happens to YOU when you die, it just answers what OTHERS do TO you when you die. Following that logic, such a system already exists under "Ancestor Worship".

@ Communism - I lol'd a bit when I saw Communism described as a religion. I could have a lot of fun with this one, as this has always been one of my favorite political debates. This actually reminds me of an assignment I had in grad school where I had to write a position paper on a pre-selected topic. My topic was prayer in public school and I was instructed to write in favor of allowing it. To make my case I actually took the position of comparing secular liberalism to a religion and arguing that enforcing the secular position was therefore a form of religious discrimination and in violation of first amendment guarantees.

Yes, communism is a secular equivalent to religion. However, so are many other forms of government. In reality though, it is not the specific form of government that replaces religion, but rather it is the secular mentality of the people that does.

Most forms of political theory have many parallels with religion and many religions have parallels with political theory. Essentially, this is because they are in fact the same thing in many ways. Whereas political theory attempts to govern your body and your property, religious theory attempts to govern your soul and morals. The real question in figuring out where a society stands is which theory is more dominant. In cases where religious theory is dominant to political theory, you have theocracy and it's various cousins. In cases where political theory is dominant to religious theory, you have secularism and all of it's related forms.

Regimes can come and go, leaders die and are born, but unless people adopt that secular mentality whereby they believe in their government more than their god, religion will continue to thrive.

In the USSR, many people did not simply abandon their beliefs one day because someone said so, they just practiced it more quietly and in secret when necessary. Membership in religious circles dramatically decreased and many did forsake their beliefs, but only those who adopted this paradigm shift of thought. This did not mean however that religion in Russia was simply non existent for just over 70 years.

In China today, Taoist traditions and celebrations are alive and well. Buddhists on the other hand, particularly in Tibet, a treated by their government with oppression and suspicion but this does not mean they no longer believe in reincarnation simply by virtue of the government they live under.

Cuba is still overwhelmingly Catholic and people there continue to practice despite the state being officially atheist.

In contrast, take a historically Christian nation like the Netherlands. There are no restrictions or laws banning religions, yet less than half of the population is religiously affiliated and even fewer actively practice. Why? Because beyond what kind of government they have or who is in charge, the mentality of the people themselves has shifted to secularism.

There's A LOT more detail we could discuss this in if you want to (and believe me I'm happy to), but suffice to say that in the end, while political ideologies are undeniably very similar to religious ideologies ultimately no ideology can tell you how you feel or what you believe, it is up to the individual to determine and laws against a particular ideology do not equate to non-existence of that ideology. Even in ancient times there were plenty of secular / atheist individuals who either had to pay lip service to a religion they didn't really believe in or face exile/death/punishment. Likewise, there were many religious believers who had to make the same choice when their faith was at odds with the current regime. However, paying lip service to a system you don't believe in to save your skin does not equal belief in that system nor does confessing your faith to be false because someone has a knife to your throat indicate a lack of belief.

Therefore, although Communism and other forms of political theory can be in some ways be regarded as religions, they significantly differ in that they do not attempt to answer spiritual questions. The only political structures under which government truly becomes/replaces religion are theocratic ones.

Bastian-Bux · Dec 24, 2008

In my opinion we should keep politics and religion separated ... but NOT religion and philosophy. Thus while communism is no religion, nihilism and different folds of atheism as well as person cult can be considered religious.

Thus a fervent atheistic materialist following a capitalistic economic agenda might be as religious (about the "golden calw") as could be a diehard stalinist (worshipping the "human godthat is each communist personality" or even Stalin).

I know more people that are as fundamentally sword-and fire preachy atheists then I know of the muslim or christian variant of this kind.

So my suggestion is to better call the whole concept "Believe structures/Philosophies" and thereby avoiding the whole "is anti-religiousness a religion of it self" question. Because the clear cut answer is: it depends.

By separating politics and philosophies, but keeping religion as part of philosophy we could come to more meaningfull categories I think.

So it might be possible to arrange the religion system in "philosofics" as equivalent to the civics.

debressac · Dec 24, 2008

Humanism could be the trigger for free massonry. Lodges would be buildable with Free Speech or Bourgeois ...

Complex · Dec 24, 2008

First off, let me just say this is a fantastic discussion.

I see where you're coming from but I really don't think you have to worry about separating religion & philosophy. Although there is actually no single definition for "religion", my copy of Websters calls it

"any specific system of belief and worship, often involving a code of ethics and a philosophy."

I agree that religion and philosophy are so intertwined it would be impossible to separate them even if we wanted. However, imo, it's like the famous example in geometry that "all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares". In this case I would argue that all religions are philosophies but not all philosophies are religions.

So, if we take this a step further the next logical step is to try and sort out what makes the difference between the two.

Both revolve around a central tenet or system of beliefs.

Both use their belief systems to attempt to define "how" a person should live or act.

Both seek to answer fundamental questions about life.

One place where they differ is that religions attempt to define the supernatural whereas most purely secular philosophies do not. To me, the absence or rejection of the supernatural is not a definition. A decent comparison is anarchism. There are many people worldwide who believe in the philosophy of the absence of an organized government. However, the absence of government is not itself a form of government as there is nothing to "form". Therefore, you could argue that anarchism is a political philosophy, however you could not argue that it is an actual form of government. Crossing over to the supernatural, believing in the absence of the divine/supernatural is not a definition since there is nothing to be defined. It would be like if I asked you to physically show me what $0.00 looked like. You could show me your empty hand or an empty wallet, but you would not be capable of producing a tangible example of $0.00 because when you are dealing with the complete absence of something, there is nothing to be shown.

Applying this example to our discussion, for comparison purposes we can look at Nihilism and Christianity and pose supernatural questions to both. If you were to ask a Christian what happens when you die, you would get an answer revolving around your behavior in life being judged by a supreme being and your place of eternal rest being determined by the result of that judgment. If you asked a Nihilist the same question, the answer would invariably be "nothing". If you were to ask a Christian to define the supernatural, you would get scripture passages detailing Christ's miracles, theology related to the nature of the holy trinity, etc. If you were to ask a Nihilist the same question, again you would get nothing. This is one of the primary differences separating secular and religious philosophy.

Also, they differ in the sense that all religions have some form of ritualistic behaviors that revolve around the pursuit of or unity with the above mentioned supernatural whereas secular philosophies do not. A Christian is baptized out of a belief in original sin and a need for supernatural redemption and also as a way of welcoming one into the organization. You could argue that a Communist becoming a party member or taking a loyalty oath is an equivalent behavior and you would be right, but only in regard to the last criteria, welcoming one to the organization. Since the Christian baptism is rooted in supernatural phenomena, it qualifies as religious whereas joining the Communist party or swearing loyalty to a leader is rooted in purely secular, man made phenomena.

I think if you apply this thinking to just about any philosophy, you will find that a basic way to separate religious from secular philosophies is by whether they hold supernatural beliefs or answer supernatural questions.

PresidentDennis · Dec 24, 2008

For the OP's afterlife thing, there needs to be one where it's just Death, aka nothing. There are people that believe that when you die you just, you know, die. You are in the ground or are burned or whatever you want to do and then you are simply gone. I guess Reunion would be the closest but still not exactly.

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