NC XVIII: Willem

TheMeInTeam

If A implies B...
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Jan 26, 2008
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Hello everybody, it's time to present the 18th installment of the Noble's Club series!

This time we are using:

THE NETHERLANDS!

Many will argue he's a top leader on a water map due to the UB. I personally think the UB is good but far from great, because it comes later. However, it has the potential to shine on a map like this. Combine it with Moai for some true abuse.

The UU is a bit cooler, since it's more cost-effective to invade. Good hunting!

And the start:

Spoiler :


As promised, it will be a watery map. However, don't assume it to be anything you're used to for certain ;). You won't be playing Hall of Fame games on this kind of map. I decided to use a different map script than normal, although some of you may remember some games by NintendoTogepi (as a hint). Don't worry though. You have enough land for more than 6 cities in this one!

And here is the standard cut and paste of our Club Doctrine, courtesy of when Bleys was hosting the series and relentlessly vultured:

There are no hard and fast rules here, fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do request that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards.

Tentative posting updates are suggested at:

4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, etc)
500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didnt, met other continent if applicable, etc)
1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

Remember, these are only guidelines. What we really want are your thoughts as the game goes on, so if your strats don't fall into line with those dates, feel free to adjust your reports accordingly.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series (and the one I learned from!), and all of you for playing.

The WB-save is attached (zipped, they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, I suggest checking out the BUG or HoF Mods), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC XVIII". This allows you to play with your favorite Mod at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Prince, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Also, it should be noted that although this is a "pre-Monarch" oriented series, you are welcome to play it at levels above Prince. However, the AIs will NOT get their full set of bonus techs (unless your host gets too creative). The main difference is Archery, which the AI normally gets for free at Monarch and above. The main effects of this are in the AIs starting units (warriors instead of archers) and it also creates a tad "slower" AI, since they now have to tech archery themselves.

In addition, because of the variations of using the Scenario menu, your starting Scout/Warrior may not be in exactly the same spot as the one shown. I know I said I'd fix this, but I forgot and the map is in a zip archive already. Personally, I don't think you're going to squeeze much advantage out of it in this one anyway ;).

Starting zip file:

View attachment 198333
 
Will give this a try on Monarch/Epic
I actually am still trying for a diplomatic victory with Ramesses in the other game
 
I may try this later. I currently have a emperor and old sitting bull game to finish off. How does one sign in??? Is this something i am missing? I have not done any online stuff with civ 4 yet. :)
 
There is no actual sign-in, you can play this whenever you want. I just wanted to acknowledge that I will be playing this rightaway...

Emperor/Epic:
4000 BC - 1600 BC

Spoiler :

Settled in place and started with a workboat while teching Mining-BW. Switched to slavery and whipped a worker. Finished the workboat and partly chopped a settler to settle Utrecht.

Tech path: Sailing (connecting cities)- AH (pigs resource) - Masonry (for TGL) - The Wheel - Pottery - Writing

After builfing a second worker and workboat in Amsterdam I chopped a lighthouse and The Great Lighthouse. I used a workboat from Utrecht to explore the island beyond the blocking mountain and used a warrior in the west for fog busting.

I'm about to settle my third city and I'm close to completing the TGL.



The map is lacking in happiness resources, so I'm not sure how I'll raise the happiness cap...
 
Like I need a specific reason to play Willem, my favorite leader.

Monarch/epic, to 70 AD:


Spoiler :


Techs: mining - bw - masonry - sailing - ah - wheel - hunting - archery - pottery - writing - mc - alphabet - currency

Being Willem on a watery map and all, I decided I want the GLH and the Colossus. Early exploration sustains this decision. The neighborhoods are easily fogbusted with a couple units, so I can safely skip the Great Wall. SHenge is pointless. Lately I've started to skip the Pyramids as well, so GLH it is.

4000 - Settled in place. Workboat/mining.

3725 - Mining - BW.

3475 - Workboat - workboat.

3200 - BW - masonry. Switch to masonry and copper is close to Amsterdam's border.

3125 - Whip workboat - worker.

2925 - Masonry - sailing.

2900 - Worker - warrior.

2625 - Sailing - AH. Warrior - settler.

2375 - Whip settler - lighthouse.

2350 - Meet Zara, one of his workboats from the E. AH - wheel.

2175 - Utrecht founded - worker:



2150 - Wheel - hunting.

2975 - Lighthouse done and Amsterdam starts the GLH.

2025 - Hunting - archery.

1850 - Archery - pottery.

1675 - Pottery - writing.

1600 - Utrecht worker - granary.

1475 - GLH done - archer:



1450 - Archer - settler.

1375 - Writing - MC. It takes an awful lot of turns, but I want the colossus. And barb galleys (wich are in my personal top 3 of most hated things in civ IV) are starting to show up. Galley vs galley sucks, so I want triremes.

1250 - Settler - archer.

1200 - OB with Zara.

1125 - Archer - settler. The Hague founded:



1025 - Utrecht granary - barracks.

750 - Amsterdam settler - granary.

700 - Utrecht starts building a few archers and switch to a forge when MC is done.

625 - Rotterdam:



455 - MC - alpha and Utrecht starts building triremes. For some reason the first 2 barb galleys didn't pillage any workboats. I'm going to park 2 triremes on each seafood.

25 - I get my first Great Merchant. Trade mission doesn't look feasible in the short term, so I decide to settle him in Rotterdam, future commerce city. Don't know if I should have saved him for bulbing.

70 - Colossus done - library:




Empire:



Cities. Utrecht will be a prod center, Rotterdam will be cottaged and The Hague is the obvious Moai city. I could save Moai Statue for some insular city (little eastern horse island), but I want it online early.



Tech situation with Zara:




Priorities now.
Happy cap is an issue. I need Monarchy for wine/hr or Calendar for silk/incense. I'm going to research CoL after currency and hopefully found Confucianism.

Utrecht will pump a few more boats to find more coastal sites to fully exploit the GLH.











 
@Ai Shizuka

Spoiler :

Why didn't you settle Utrecht on the river (1 tile east)? Do you think the extra grassland hill is more important?

I like to bulb Currency with a Great Merchant as a first GP. It's a quick route towards CoL without the usual religious path via Priesthood.

I wonder if Pyramids is the solution to the happiness problem. The +3 :) from Representation would be excellent and with all the fish resources you'll probably will be running some scientist from the cheap libraries. I also went for TGL, but maybe settling the 2nd city near the stone and building the Pyramids in Amsterdam would have been better. I fear I can't get both on Emperor level.
 
How does one sign in???
No need, this is an open series. Anyone can play any game any time. In fact, feel free to go back and play old ones. You can read the thread as you play, and get a lot of insight, since the game has been discussed already. I always read the posts of old games that pop up in the series on this board. Its great practice. I am considering going back to some of the ones I played at Monarch and trying them on Immortal.
 
No need, this is an open series. Anyone can play any game any time. In fact, feel free to go back and play old ones. You can read the thread as you play, and get a lot of insight, since the game has been discussed already. I always read the posts of old games that pop up in the series on this board. Its great practice. I am considering going back to some of the ones I played at Monarch and trying them on Immortal.

Once i have finished destroying the Vikings and others in my Sitting bull game. I am slowly learning that you should never let a financial civ live the vikings live. I think this game is almost mine. 4-5 Ai left to vassel. I may look at previous games on here when i have a mo. I do try and follow the forums more these days. Oh happy days.
 
Fierabras:


Spoiler :

Yes, I settled 1E to get that extra grass hill. I don't think health is going to be an issue in this game, with the 3 seafoods, banana and pigs.

Currency was done in 5-6 turns at that point, and the GM would have been kinda wasted, I think. I don't know what he was bulbing after currency. CoL? Probably a CoL bulb was the better use. Still, those 6 :gold: are nice. Never dropped below 80% research so far. I admit that GP management is one of the weakest points in my games, so I'm never sure about the better way to use them.

I agree on the Pyramids now. All the wonders are built very late in my game and banana/incense/stone would have been a nice city. Pyramids would have been a better choice over Colossus.
 
I'm in for this one.

A fairly nice start, two foods is good and once those silks get online the city should make a good amount of money. Does that tiny excuse for the river leading north from the lake give us the ability to build a levee in the capital?
 
I'm in for this one.

A fairly nice start, two foods is good and once those silks get online the city should make a good amount of money. Does that tiny excuse for the river leading north from the lake give us the ability to build a levee in the capital?

If I'm not completely remembering things the wrong way, the Netherland UB replaces leeve and works on the sea as well, so no need for riveraccess here, just ocean is enough. Though, I don't have the manual or game here atm so I might be handing out false information. :confused:
 
Hmmm, I did not know that. I thought as it was replacing the Levee the city should be riverside and the bonus is that it gets +1 hammer on water tiles.
 
Point13, you can build the Dike in any coastal city. It doesn't need a river.

SCORE!


to 900 BC (didn't notice 1000 sneak by)

Noble, Normal

Spoiler :
Not much eventful this round. We run into Zara Yaqob, who sends a little work boat near Amsterdam

Unfortunately I didn't expand as much as I would have liked this round so I'm stuck with this so far:


However I plan on getting a couple more cities to the west and then exploring south of that infuriating peak.

 
Immortal, to about 1 AD
Spoiler :

I basically settled in place, REXed out the whole island after building the Great Lighthouse, and am now teching my way to Liberalism. I also built the Pyramids after seeing that stone and the lack of happiness resources. My capital has been the Great Person farm in this game, of course, as the rest of the island is lame in my opinion, although not completely awful. I made sure to settle an early city on Zara's island because I knew I was going to war with him anyway and wanted a good foothold. I kept him alive for the lucrative trade routes he could offer some of my cities, though.

I neglected military completely up to this point. I've only seen ONE (yes, ONE) barbarian and this is Immortal difficulty! No barbarian galleys yet but I'm prepared for them anyway.

What I found interesting, was that Zara was VERY SLOW in expanding his island. And also..the Oracle was the first wonder built! In 1880 BC! How often do you see that? :lol:

 
to 540 AD

Spoiler :
We kick off this round, by finding Zara's home island

And then his captial


Turns out that land below the mountain... is pathetic.

Fortunately the city I founded Southwest of Amsterdam can use the silk on the eastern tip, because I really don't see myself wasting time settling there... especially when I haven't settled to the west yet:eek:(A real problem, I know)

Attila the Hun pops up on my borders and here you see my little army after killing off his horse archers. This little force is being created to invade Ethopia. Zara founds Confucianism.


I take Addis Ababa without much trouble, losing one axeman i believe. The city has horses once I ship a worker out to pasture them and has sheep already worked.

With a dike and lighthouse I guess this city will be ok. Plus it's a foothold for future invasions.

What troops I have remaining stall out (turns out Askum is on a hill so I didn't even try, just pillaged his iron and went for peace. I didn't get any more concessions but I did get to keep AA, which is all I could hope for.

Good old creative trait.

I guess the next round is me focusing on: overdue expansion, especially for stone and horses to the west, and taking out Zara. With the capture of AA I decide I might as well convert. I am in the anarchy for conversion to Confucianism as of the save. I plan on acquiring the holy city... very soon. After that I suppose I better get optics and try for Circumnavigation.

I'm posting the save for anybody interested. Feel free to give me some feedback.
 

Attachments

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Part II, Monarch/epic, 70 AD - 1440 AD:

Spoiler :


Techs: currency - CoL - mathematics - calendar - IW - compass - machinery - optics - mysticism - meditation - philo - CS (bulbed all but 1 turn) - paper - edu - liberalism (researching)


355 - First to CoL. A religion is very useful now for my crappy happiness cap:



610 - Nijmegen:



950 - A Great Merchant bulbs Civil Service (1 turn to go).

990 - Maastricht. Kinda useless city until Dikes. Helps with trade routes anyway:



1220 - Barbs uprising in 1220 AD?



Utrecht and Rotterdam whip a crossbow each.

1260 - 2 barb swords killed at Rotterdam, 2 at Utrecht.

1275 - Middelburg. Another marginal city with some dike potential:



1285 - First oversea AI:



1310 - Backfill trade with Zara:



1355 - More AIs and I get the circumnavigation bonus:





1365 - Trade with Hammurabi:



1370 - And with Joao:



1425 - Next AI:





1440 - Last AI:



Empire with and without resources:





Techs:



Cities:




I'll take Astro from Liberalism and start building some East Indiamen.

Zara is friendly now, but was in WHEOOHRN mode at pleased, before oversea contact with other civs (I think). Best ships he can build at this moment are galleys and triremes anyway, so it will be easy.

Not sure about the future plans. I think I'll go Zara first, followed by Hammurabi (he's quite close to the SW).

I need to settle a couple more junk cities for filling purposes.


 
Part III, monarch/epic, 1440 - 1857:

Spoiler :


Techs: feudalism (Gilga) - Drama (Zara) - Liberalism - Astro (free) - guilds - banking - economics - engineering (Gilga) - gunpowder - chemistry - steel - nationalism (Saladin) - printing press (Hammurabi) - Sci Meth - communism - physics - biology - rep parts - steam power - democracy and military trad (Gilga)

Not my usual tech path. I got the GM from economics and the GSpy from communism. Missed the GS from physics by 3 turns. I was planning a golden age with GSpy+GS. Early biology to help a couple prod cities grow.

1480 - Free Astro from Lib:



1570 - Zara thinks this is enough:



And suicides 4 maces at Maastricht (3 CG lbows on a hill and 40% culture defense).

1600 - I win the circumnavigation bonus.

1650 - Economics GM gets 2550 gold at Uruk:



1680 - Another GM starts a golden age.

1730 - Ready at Yeha:



1734 - Yeha captured.

1738 - Zara's stack shows up:



And is destroyed, losing a couple trebs.

1766 - Zara suicides some more crap at Yeha.

1778 - Gondar captured and peace. Not enough units to keep going:



1800 - Joao declares war? And suicides 2 maces and 2 horse archers at Yeha. Didn't see anything else from him.

1814 - Aksum captured, Chichen Itza and Mausoleum inside.

1832 - Addis Ababa captured.

1843 - Debre Berhan captured.

1846 - Big civics switch to Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Emancipation and State Property.

And a key trade with Gilga. WW + no emancipation unhappiness is killing my cities:



1847 - Lalibela captured.

1850 - Wang capitulates to Saladin.

1857 - Adulis captured and I accept Zara's capitulation. He still has two 1-tile island cities:




Ethiopia:



Techs:



Glance. Wang's -10 is a good example of how idiotic the whole diplo system is. He's furious just from "you refused to do this and that": -1 for no tribute, -3 for no war help, -3 for you refused to stop trading and -4 for you traded with our worst enemy:



And cities:




Next segment will be devoted to heavy infrastructure building. I still need 2 more universities for Oxford. Utrecht has the Heroic Epic and is building Ironworks. Steam Power is done in 3 turns and I will build dikes pretty much everywhere. Ethiopia already has a lot of mature cottages and I'll build even more there. Tech situation is good and the new land will grant me a solid advantage in late industrial/early modern era.
And I want Mt. Rushmore and Police Stations in the main cities. WW was really ugly in the (way too) long war vs Zara.

Next wars will be quicker, I will accept capitulations as soon as they offer them.









 
Immortal/Normal

1000 BC:

Spoiler :
I teched BW while building workboats, whipped workers then settlers while headed toward :) sources. Nothing else needed since we have copper, I went for GLH.

Here's the empire:





A lot of land blocked and now a lot of ability to pay for it.


500 AD:

Spoiler :
Got confucianism VERY late for immortal...must be the map



This spread to zara, and we shared confuc for a while till he founded taoism and adopted it :cry:.

Empire at 500 AD:





To 1200 AD

Spoiler :
Finished expanding the island, kept diplo decent with zara, met a guy or two, and mostly just used caste/pacifism after settling most of my cities to churn out some fast GS's. These were used to bulb education and printing press (as well as an academy in capitol) before switching back.



Generic choice, good for trades.


To ~ 1600 AD

Spoiler :
Circumnavigation is also late and I grab it:



Around this time I'd been thinking of striking Zara but on faster speeds it never seems plausible w/o a tech lead and he was keeping up. Of course once I got him playing nice with me I could have rampaged and owned Wang Kon, Joao, and Gilgamesh who were all horribly backward, and ran away with the game from there (probably overpowering culture seeking hammy with 5x his cities or more), but I found an easier approach:



Why is this screen relevant? Sal is #1 in pop and will stay that way. This means that if I get enough of the other guys to like me, I can win via the UN just by building it. Favorite civic abuse, engage (although I always do even if suboptimal for economy, because nothing hurts econ like war)!


End of the game, 1860 AD UN win

Spoiler :
It was an easy beeline toward mass media (after rifling to protect myself and conveniently used to trade for physics from Zara). I used state property and some muskets to grab a few extra cities but it wasn't necessary, just enjoying myself a bit:



I get to mass media a tech ahead of culture loving hammy, build the UN before anyone even gets the tech, and win on the first vote:



Tech situation at end:







Ok. Now to review how I got four of the six AIs in the game to decide that I win the game:









And even sour grapes Sal liked me too much for war:



Only wang kon was annoyed (I stopped trading with him and he left his fav. civic, and I didn't care because I was stronger). He had the smallest pop in the game or I'd have not stopped trading with him, pissed of sal, built more defenses, and gifted him tech (and spyswapped him back into caste for friendly). I didn't need him though so screw that.
 
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