Leader trait balance

Some leader traits are clearly stronger or weaker than others.

Also, AI performance is massively dependent on a) start position (floodplains = good) and b) traits. In particular, leaders with industrious and financial do very very well. Lorenzo Lupo (with both) tends to dominate every game he is in.

Raiders is weak; it needs to have the Fall Further raiders style implemented as well as the bonus cash; so melee, recon and mounted units automatically pillage tiles they move onto in the borders of civs they are at war with.

Ingenuity is a bit weak particularly for dwarves who don't have wizards, which are the main gold-expensive upgrades that you do. Maybe just increase the starting cash a little (its mostly there because of the dwarven vault), and think of a building that it can increase production of?

Magic resistant could possibly be a dwarven racial trait rather than taking up a leader trait slot - maybe dwarves should get defensive or protective instead?

Besieger is pathetically weak; to make it much more useful, maybe it should give the mobility 1 promotion to all siege units?
Or at the very least, combat 1 and city raider 1.

Azhag's expansive trait doesn't seem to give the 25% worker build speed bonus that expansive trait gives on other leaders?

Maybe defender should also double production speed of bowyers?

Horseman should maybe also double production speed of Joust.

Summoner should also give double production of coven and elemental sanctum, and maybe spell extension 1 to all arcane units.

Arcane is pretty weak; maybe it should also give combat 1 to all arcane units.

Or switch these, so summoner gives +2 summoning duration and combat 1 to all arcane units, and arcane gives arcane promotion and spell extension 1 promotion to all arcane units, and both double production of coven and elemental sanctum.

Imperialistic is very strong; reduce its civic upkeep reduction to 25% at the minimum; compare it to organized, already a very good trait.

Industrious is insanely strong; industrious AI civs always do massively better than others.
Make it +1 hammer on tiles with 4 hammers, double speed for forge, and maybe +25% wonder production.

Other issues:
I don't think chaos dwarves (astragoth) should be sprawling; lets leave that to just Skaven.

Katarin needs to lose Summoner and Arcane and get something else; kislev won't be getting any summonable units. Or maybe eliminate her as a leader entirely and just keep her as a hero. An arcane hero just doesn't really make sense for a low-magic Kislev.

Summoner doesn't make sense for Settra; tomb king magic isn't summoning magic, so its pretty useless.

Raiders is weak; it needs to have the Fall Further raiders style implemented as well as the bonus cash; so melee, recon and mounted units automatically pillage tiles they move onto in the borders of civs they are at war with.

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i agree 100%. i thought the promotion xml had the ability to alow auto pillaging and ive ticked that for the raider promo, but it dosnt seem to be working. once the change to the last version of FfH occurs this will be fixed i think. in the mean time i vote for increasing the ammount of gold gained from pillage and giving +1 EXP from combat.

Ingenuity is a bit weak particularly for dwarves who don't have wizards, which are the main gold-expensive upgrades that you do. Maybe just increase the starting cash a little (its mostly there because of the dwarven vault), and think of a building that it can increase production of?

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i also agree here. its a very pathetic trait. something needs to be done?

Magic resistant could possibly be a dwarven racial trait rather than taking up a leader trait slot - maybe dwarves should get defensive or protective instead?

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i would agree with this. in fact i was thinking about including the magic resistance in the dwarf promotion and scrapping the trait for dwarves entirely.

Besieger is pathetically weak; to make it much more useful, maybe it should give the mobility 1 promotion to all siege units?
Or at the very least, combat 1 and city raider 1.

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i would agree with this too

Azhag's expansive trait doesn't seem to give the 25% worker build speed bonus that expansive trait gives on other leaders?

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goblin workers naturally work slower than other civs. this could be the cause.

Maybe defender should also double production speed of bowyers?

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sure

Horseman should maybe also double production speed of Joust.

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definately

Summoner should also give double production of coven and elemental sanctum, and maybe spell extension 1 to all arcane units.

Arcane is pretty weak; maybe it should also give combat 1 to all arcane units.

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i think i will combine these 2 traits together with both suggestions.

Imperialistic is very strong; reduce its civic upkeep reduction to 25% at the minimum; compare it to organized, already a very good trait.

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thats not a bad idea too.

Industrious is insanely strong; industrious AI civs always do massively better than others.
Make it +1 hammer on tiles with 4 hammers, double speed for forge, and maybe +25% wonder production.

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ok

Other issues:

I don't think chaos dwarves (astragoth) should be sprawling; lets leave that to just Skaven.

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hrm perhaps. what would you suggest instead? ingenuity, arcane, magic resistance and besieger?

Katarin needs to lose Summoner and Arcane and get something else; kislev won't be getting any summonable units. Or maybe eliminate her as a leader entirely and just keep her as a hero. An arcane hero just doesn't really make sense for a low-magic Kislev.

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ill change her triats to something else. but i think ill keep the combined arcane trait on her.

Summoner doesn't make sense for Settra; tomb king magic isn't summoning magic, so its pretty useless.

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agreed

in the mean time i vote for increasing the ammount of gold gained from pillage and giving +1 EXP from combat.

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Well... do you really want it to be stronger than the maurauder trait? Which is also possibly slightly weak.

goblin workers naturally work slower than other civs. this could be the cause.

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No, I mean; expansive trait normally gives +25% hammers when building workers. But on Azhag, that doesn't show up in the expansive trait (at least in the civilopedia.

i also agree here. its a very pathetic trait. something needs to be done?

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Part of the problem is that upgrade chains aren't very long. Unlike in FFH, you move away from warriors pretty quickly and never get much xp on them. So at best, you can really upgrade a unit twice; tier1-2, and tier2-3. And many units don't upgrade into their higher tier counterparts.
Maybe just increase the gold saving to ~75% or so. That could save a lot of gold in the end.
A Besieger trait on one of the dwarves (whoever isn't financial) could be pretty cool with all their siege units.

in fact i was thinking about including the magic resistance in the dwarf promotion and scrapping the trait for dwarves entirely.

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I think this is the way to go: dwarf promotion gives +10% hills strength, double bonus from fortification, and magic resistance. With that, it doesn't matter if they have slightly weaker other traits (ingenuity for eg).
Remember that most of the point of ingenuity from FFH is because dwarves have to save their gold or suffer from the Vault mechanic.

hrm perhaps. what would you suggest instead? ingenuity, arcane, magic resistance and besieger?

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I don't really know enough about their fluff... but maybe ingenuity, industrious and besieger?
Are they really more magic-oriented than the Warriors of Chaos factions?
Magic resistance and arcane seem... contradictory. Either they're still dwarves and they're anti-magical, or they're mutated twisted magical dwarves and they're arcane.

ill change her triats to something else. but i think ill keep the combined arcane trait on her.

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Why? Its totally useless for Kislev that can't build any mages, can't research any magic techs, and doesn't use covens or anything.
On your advise (and Masada's) Kislev was changed so that the only mage they can build is a mercenary wizard (that has some random level 1 and a level 2 magic, and no channeling).

Well... do you really want it to be stronger than the maurauder trait? Which is also possibly slightly weak.

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hmm i hadnt considered that. how about a combined maurauder and raider (its essentially the same trait...)

No, I mean; expansive trait normally gives +25% hammers when building workers. But on Azhag, that doesn't show up in the expansive trait (at least in the civilopedia.

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i have no idea what that could be then...

Maybe just increase the gold saving to ~75% or so. That could save a lot of gold in the end.

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perhaps thats the way to go then, and increase the ammount of starting gold. maybe some +x% to building production speed or something too.

I don't really know enough about their fluff... but maybe ingenuity, industrious and besieger?
Are they really more magic-oriented than the Warriors of Chaos factions?
Magic resistance and arcane seem... contradictory. Either they're still dwarves and they're anti-magical, or they're mutated twisted magical dwarves and they're arcane.

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well chaos dwarves i guess are far more arcane than magic resistant so id go with arc over Mag res. perhaps just arcane industrious and beseiger.

Why? Its totally useless for Kislev that can't build any mages, can't research any magic techs, and doesn't use covens or anything.
On your advise (and Masada's) Kislev was changed so that the only mage they can build is a mercenary wizard (that has some random level 1 and a level 2 magic, and no channeling).

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well mostly for flavour. and as you say it would be that big an advantage to have so it wont matter that they have more traits. it would still affect how strong their merc wizards are.
perhaps a better trait for representing her would be magic resistance then as its more in flavour civ wise.

No, I mean; expansive trait normally gives +25% hammers when building workers. But on Azhag, that doesn't show up in the expansive trait (at least in the civilopedia.

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I think that's because Goblin Worker is a separate unit; would need to add the trait bonus for that unit as well.

Chaos Dwarves are a lot better suited for the Sprawling trait than Skaven are, since they genuinely do have very few central cities where the Dawi Zharr live and own some outlying mines etc run only by slaves. OTOH I'm not a huge fan of the trait as the AI always builds farms/cottages around outposts (it doesn't seem to be totally crippling nonetheless.)

I think that's because Goblin Worker is a separate unit; would need to add the trait bonus for that unit as well.

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This sounds possible, an easy fix.

Chaos Dwarves are a lot better suited for the Sprawling trait than Skaven are, since they genuinely do have very few central cities where the Dawi Zharr live and own some outlying mines etc run only by slaves. OTOH I'm not a huge fan of the trait as the AI always builds farms/cottages around outposts (it doesn't seem to be totally crippling nonetheless.)

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Well.... sprawling fits fine for Skaven, with some true megacity nests. And we've already designed Skaven to work as a sprawling megacity civ, and I think we should limit that to one civ, and have chaos dwarves function as a normal civ. Its not like Dark Elves aren't also few in number with most work done by slaves.

perhaps Chaos Dwarves could have their capitol able to work the third ring only (ie make them a UB palace which allows it), then make their settlers much more expensive than usual...

I think that's because Goblin Worker is a separate unit; would need to add the trait bonus for that unit as well.

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could be a good assumption... will look into it.

it would still affect how strong their merc wizards are.

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That's still a little awkward, because they are mercenaries nevertheless, so they are only working for gold. I mean, of course they have to be built, but that's just so, because the game works this way. Why should the leader have so strong influence on hired wizards?


Edit: Well, considered that, there are many flaws of that kind in Civilization I guess.

That's still a little awkward, because they are mercenaries nevertheless, so they are only working for gold. I mean, of course they have to be built, but that's just so, because the game works this way. Why should the leader have so strong influence on hired wizards?

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More to the point; the hired wizard design is unlikely to have a summoning spell, and won't have the channeling promotion, so the arcane and spell extension promotions from the Arcane trait are useless.

Arcane would really make no sense for Kislev, unless you want to go back and give them ice magic elementalists, which Masada seemed strongly against lore-wise.

perhaps Chaos Dwarves could have their capitol able to work the third ring only (ie make them a UB palace which allows it), then make their settlers much more expensive than usual...

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I kinda like that idea.. one possible way to allow Sprawling cities without crippling limits to expansion like FfH Kuriotates would be to have a UB that allows a 3-ring city; and allow one of these for every three Outposts you own (simply copying the existing mechanic from Civ where you can build one "Cathedral" building for every three 3 Temple buildings.) Otherwise when the AI gets Sprawling it can never project very much power far beyond its few actual cities.

perhaps Chaos Dwarves could have their capitol able to work the third ring only (ie make them a UB palace which allows it), then make their settlers much more expensive than usual...

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This sounds possible, though potentially strong.

one possible way to allow Sprawling cities without crippling limits to expansion like FfH Kuriotates would be to have a UB that allows a 3-ring city; and allow one of these for every three Outposts you own (simply copying the existing mechanic from Civ where you can build one "Cathedral" building for every three 3 Temple buildings.)

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This sounds way too strong. Having multiple 3-ring cities *and* other cities being normal? Remember that the City of 1000 Slums is a pretty good wonder in FFH, being able to build multiple versions of that would be very very powerful.

Otherwise when the AI gets Sprawling it can never project very much power far beyond its few actual cities.

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I think we can solve this for Sprawling through the extra hammer production buildings and warrens and skaven-specific civic, which the Kuriotatates lack.

Having multiple 3-ring cities *and* other cities being normal?

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No, the other cities would be outposts as currently, and count their automatic "citizens" buildings toward supporting a smaller number of central cities.

i think perhaps just making the CD palace act *exactly* like the city of 1000 slums wonder would be fine. no UBs or improvements to make the capital more of a powerhouse. this way it is basically a normal city with a slight advantage. still very different to the skaven. (also if the CD build the Suiddocks then they can have 2 metropoli eventually, note to self, make suiddocks un-buildable by skaven.)

i think perhaps just making the CD palace act *exactly* like the city of 1000 slums wonder would be fine

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Its possible, but its not as minor a bonus as you think; the main advantage in the early-midgame is increasing the number of bonus resources within your fat cross; most capitals will have 2, maybe 3 bonus resources; with an extra ring, you can easily get another 2 bonus resources with high tile yields for your capital.

OTOH, this could partly make up for poor city placement required by Subterranean trait requiring the city to be built on a hill tile. So maybe not that much difference.

(While you're working on the Suidocks, remember that it was way too strong, and could be built in non-coastal cities).
Lorewise, what are the Suidocks, and who controls them?

Lore wise the suiddocks are located in Marienburg in the empire, it is a MASSIVE coastal city within a city focused Strongly on merchants and trade. think of it sort of like a giant trading post similar to Venice in that it is built above water (and swamp) but consists a lot of poor fishermen as well as wealthy merchants. in the Civ 3 Warhammer version the Suiddocks allowed the city to grow past 18 population, but because those mechanics were removed in civ 4 the 3rd ring seemed like the most appropriate benefit.

Psychic_Llamas said:

Lore wise the suiddocks are located in Marienburg in the empire, it is a MASSIVE coastal city within a city focused Strongly on merchants and trade. think of it sort of like a giant trading post similar to Venice in that it is built above water (and swamp) but consists a lot of poor fishermen as well as wealthy merchants. in the Civ 3 Warhammer version the Suiddocks allowed the city to grow past 18 population, but because those mechanics were removed in civ 4 the 3rd ring seemed like the most appropriate benefit.

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I agree with this. The suiddocks are what they are supposed to be. It's ability to increase the city limit is the perfect trait for them. It's one of the rare non magical world wonders worth bilding.

I'm fine with Suidocks acting as the City of One Thousand slums, adding a third ring. I just don't want it acting as that AND the great lighthouse AND adding naval production etc.

The Wonder just does too much; more than 2 other decent wonders.

fair enough ahri. suggested nerfs?

How about having it give the 3rd ring production, 2 bonus trade routes in that city, can only be built in coastal cities, and increases city maintenance 10%.

sounds like a plan.