Format for Monthly Competitions

Should Some Method of Adding Annual Wildcard Entries be Implemented in Monthly Vote

  • Yes, Implement Wildcards in the Monthly Vote

    Votes: 5 22.7%
  • No, Leave the Monthly Competition As Is

    Votes: 17 77.3%

  • Total voters
    22
  • Poll closed .

Pounder

Phaethon was here
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Thought I would put out a poll before the first monthly competitions start.

Question is whether some method of adding deserving entries to qualify for the annual competition.

Entries that lost in the monthly competition, but still might be better than winners of other monthly competitions.

Maybe there could be two lines per entry in the monthlys: one for the winner of the month and a second that says sorry no, but this is good enough to be a wild card.
That way the wildcards would be pre-determined in the wildcard vote by attaining 2/3's of the votes the winner got in the actual monthly vote, and then it would be entered in the annuals.

I know that this would mean that you could vote for more than one unit, but that wouldn't neccessarily be bad either, as it may show who is deserving, and coin flips won't decide the votes.

I hoping that this thread will be active and some ideas better than my own will surface.
 
I just think that having more than 12 entries in the annual would be too cumbersome and besides, isn't there a graphic limit of 20 pics or something in a single post? If there are wildcards the number of entries could theoretically be up to 24. Thats 24 preview pics and 4 pics would have to go on a second post.

I say keep it simple and manageable.
 
I just think that having more than 12 entries in the annual would be too cumbersome and besides, isn't there a graphic limit of 20 pics or something in a single post? If there are wildcards the number of entries could theoretically be up to 24. Thats 24 preview pics and 4 pics would have to go on a second post.

I say keep it simple and manageable.

Maybe the top 4 percentage wildcard vote getters for the year, the percentage being a ratio of wildcard votes to the winners votes.

That would mean a maximum of 4 wildcard entries, because as stated in the first post if the ratio is less than 2/3's of the winners votes they don't qualify anyway.

The reason I am pushing this, is because it is possible that the second place in the monthly also has the potential to be second place for the year.
 
Maybe the top 4 percentage wildcard vote getters for the year, the percentage being a ratio of wildcard votes to the winners votes.

That would mean a maximum of 4 wildcard entries, because as stated in the first post if the ratio is less than 2/3's of the winners votes they don't qualify anyway.

The reason I am pushing this, is because it is possible that the second place in the monthly also has the potential to be second place for the year.

You have a good point. I wish I could change my vote now. :blush:
 
Im not sure about this, still. Take for example my entry and Ogedei's. They had the same number of votes in the february contest, and actually at one point i was behind, so in theory i could have been second. But on the yearly contest Ogedei's creation got far fewer votes. It is more complicated than that, obviously.

Im also strongly against the ability to vote for more than one entries.
 
Hi there. :)

This is an interesting idea, Pounder. I'm sitting on the fence at the moment. I don't think I'm inclined to support the format posed in the OP, but I could support a change in format if an especially good one is ironed out. Otherwise, I would prefer we keep the present format, as I really have no problems with it.

In the interest of exploring what would constitute an especially good format, let me outline a few issues I see involved with the idea of changing the format of the competitions.

First of all, I'm of the opinion that changing the format of the competitions is not strictly necessary; that there is not any significant inequity in the current format that requires rectification. While it is certainly unfortunate that many deserving entries do not make it to the yearly competition, do people take these competitions so much to heart to warrant something being done about this? Or is that generally taken lightly enough that we needn't bother? Now I don't mean to suggest that any change that isn't really necessary should not be made, but I think we should be certain if this is that big of a deal.

This whole idea brought to mind this competition, where all the losing entries were pretty much blown out of the water by what went on to become the PCX graphics of the year. Interestingly, there were some calls in this thread for some sort of a runner-up competition due to the fact that it was obvious from the beginning who the winner would be. So now to my second issue: I don't like the idea of the qualifier for wild-card or potential wild-card status to be a certain percentage of the number of votes of the winner. My case being in the linked competition, where one entry, incidentally my own, made a particularly strong showing against the eventual winner, but didn't even attain fifty percent of the amount of votes of the winning entry. I don't say this at all to brag, but I personally consider my entry that month to be the best graphics I've created and I believe that entry could have held it's own in the yearly competition. But, under the tentative format proposed in the OP, my entry would not have qualified. I would be more supportive of the idea proposed by Balthasar here where simply the runners up are chosen, but I have issues with that idea as well that i'll get into in a bit.
I would like to take a moment now to clarify that I in no way have any hard feelings about that competition, in fact I am more than satisfied with the result and am extremely grateful to have done so well, and proud to have been bested in the monthly competition by the subsequent PCX graphics of the year. I simply thought that competition served as a good example to my point.

Another issue I would like to bring up is that of complexity. The format of the current competitions is pretty simple: the winner of the graphics of the month competitions duke it out in the graphics of the year competitions. Making things more complicated may come with certain risks. Before I go into those, recall Balthasar's proposal of simply choosing the runner-ups in each of the monthly competitions. One of the issues I have with this is that I see doing run-off competions as a fairer way of determining which entry is truly the second best. The benefits of this fairness is, however, probably outweighed by the detriment of this proposal's complexity: it would mean twelve more competitions, which is obviously overkill. This brings me back to the potential risks involved in complicating the rules of the competitions, and/or creating additional competitions. One of which, I think, could be the decline in interest and voter turnout in the competitions should the rules and processes involved be anything more than very simple to understand, and the competitions to be anything but few in number. This ties into what I believe to be another risk in increasing complexity: decreasing meaningfulness. The competitions are a great blessing and considerable fun, don't get me wrong, but a victory is otherwise of little more than symbolic value. Would there be all that much of point or worth in having lesser titles? Complicating the current format by adding more competitions or various runner-up positions may also risk reducing the meaning of or the focus on the 'important core' competitions and titles associated with them.

Speaking shortly on the issue of having two votes (or any quantity of votes greater than one), there is a significant risk involved here too. While in one person, one vote competitions, a single vote per person is assured, allowing multiple votes with the expectation that noone will abuse this ability by voting more than, say, twice is dangerous. Even one person voting in such a way can compromise an entire competition. A solution of sorts could be found in making the poll public; as any abuses could be potentially identified and discounted. However, having a public poll may not be seen as something that is acceptable in any case.

One more issue that I think needs to be looked at if we are going to change the format of the competitions is if a proposal even achieves what it sets out to do. Again recall Balthasar's idea (I'm sorry for picking on you so much, Balthasar!), where it is suggested that once the runner-ups from each of the monthly competitions compete, the victor is chosen as wild-card to be present in the yearly competition. The other problem I had with this idea is that this doesn't really do much to solve what was considered the original problem - that there were very deserving entries that weren't making it into the yearly competition - as only one actually would. Moving on, we should consider that in any competition there are going to be very deserving entries that are ultimately left behind, and this goes for any secondary competition involving runners up or wild-cards and the likes just as much as it does for the primary competions. Is there any system we can come up with that can give as many deserving entries or the most deserving entries a second chance as possible? Because I think that deserving entries falling behind is largely a factor of how people vote. Any change in format may only be able to do so much to bring to the forefront these deserving losing entries, and these entries are still subject to the whims of those voters. My point is that we should also be looking at the effectiveness of a proposed format in adressing the percieved problems of the current system.

I think we should remember that while we may all agree that some deserving entries do not make the cut, It is the voters that we ultimately have to rely on to decide what 'deserving' even means.

Hopefully I've provided some useful perspectives for this discussion. :)
 
Lots of good points.

I don't think the runner up should automatically be entered in a run off vote at the end of the year, I think that the entry should be deserving and not all runner ups are deserving.

I think that it is just as much of a problem having entries that have no monthly competiton being entered in the annual competition.

Which brings up a point, if there is only one entry and the question is still asked is this entry is good enough for the annual competition yes or no and then......

I think that maybe things should be left alone as there is potential for some hurt feelings.

I am leaning towards voting leave as is.

Don't think that any changes should take place unless there was an overwhelming call for them, and it doesn't look like there is going to be an overwhelming call for change.

Glad that this discussion is taking place.
 
Since I started the competitions proposal similar to this have popped up several times. I too feel bad about the for the runner-up sometimes (especially if it was my favorite ;)).

But that is the principle of elections or being part of a jury. One man, one vote...


PS: Is it even possible to limit the number of votes to 2 or 3? I thought it was either one vote or as many as you want. One of the reason I never did it...
 
I like this idea.. often people vote based on what they can use, and what kind of stuff they like, and not on the quality of the unit itself.

That's true, and personally I find it quite annoying ("X is a great unitzz but I wudnt use it so i voted for Y instead!!!lolz"), but then people would vote for the "wildcard" using the same principles, so that would be no better.

The reason I am pushing this, is because it is possible that the second place in the monthly also has the potential to be second place for the year.

That may be true, but then, does it really matter? If an entry isn't good enough to win the monthly competition in which it is entered, then even if it's an unusually good entry and was just unlucky to face an even more brilliant one that month, it's probably not going to beat that brilliant one in the annual competition. Maybe it would come second, but I don't see much point in having an elaborate and complicated voting procedure simply to give more units the chance of coming second. There are no prizes for being second in these. Come to that, there are no prizes for being first either, but at least you can say you did it.

If you really think it's worth doing, I think it would be better simply to put all first- and second-placed entries automatically into the annual poll, giving (potentially) 24 entries. I also think that would be too many, so I would prefer to leave things the way they are.

No voting system where you have an "elimination" process to determine a final winner is perfect; just look at First Past The Post versus Proportional Representation. The only really fair way to determine the annual winner would be to have every single entry from the whole year entered into one massive poll. But that's not possible, and even if it were, it would surely be ridiculous.
 
Or you could change the whole system to work like the monthly ones, with each person who made a unit that year deciding one to enter regardless of who did what in the monthly competitions. But personally, I like it as it is...

(also, looking forward to the unit maker of the decade in 2 years :p)
 
I originally supported the wildcard spots, but I think that Plotinus had some excellent points and has swayed my vote in the opposite direction. Better to leave things probably as they are.

If you did use wildcard votes, then I think that only maybe taking one or two of the second place winners with the highest number of votes would definitely be enough, and not one from every month.
 
That's true, and personally I find it quite annoying ("X is a great unitzz but I wudnt use it so i voted for Y instead!!!lolz"), but then people would vote for the "wildcard" using the same principles, so that would be no better.

I may be one who appreciates the vote for a more useful entry, being that is basis for the creation of my entry.

Funny with units and LH's I tend to vote for what has the best animations and not so much whether I would use it or not.

But for some reason with the PCX competition I definitely take into account it's usefulness and it's aesthetics.
 
It's as Stormrage says. People also consider the usefulness of the object. Most of the stuff I make pretty much taxes what's left of my sanity, but they're not at all useful to most people here since there are hardly any East Asian mods and not really significant interest in East Asia. The contests are just icing on the cake and I happen to be more of a sponge cake person. ;)
 
As to exceeding the graphics limit in a single post - there's a simple solution for that one.

I'm not certain, but I believe it is possible to have more than one poll in a thread. This would allow a "second choice". Which would allow a basis from the monthlies for deciding annual wild cards. Alternatively, the votes from the first and second polls could be added together to determine the monthly winner - I've seen this done elsewhere. It doesn't add too much complexity, it avoids spam voting, and many people think it leads to a fairer outcome.

If you want to get complicated - have separate votes for creativity, utility, and technical accomplishment. The drunk, a military unit, & the hobbit burglar might all win then, even in a monthly head to head.

Another complicated alternative for a monthly, but that might work for an annual wild card, is to set up a way that anyone who has actually entered something in the polls throughout the year can nominate a wild card choice in the same category. That's how the five nominees are picked each year for the Oscars. Feelings could be preserved to a degree by having the nominations done privately. I can think of a couple of ways of accomplishing that.
 
Yes, where does it end... we could also allow Units that were Made long ago and Never Entered into any contest...and On and On. Basically if an Individual wants to enter the contest, it is his or her prerogative to do so each Month...Votes will always be an Individual matter as it always has been.

I say One Vote ... I will also state that I believe that the Contest would be better to have ONLY ONE Unit representing the Unit maker rather than two or more because this splits the Votes for that individual. Probably best to take the Unit that had the Most votes for a monthly and enter that one as Representation for the unit Maker.

Monthly winners are in the Annual contest yes but only One Entry to represent them...Unless you want to change the Contest to the Best Unit Of the Year, Best pcx of the Year and Best Leaderhead of the Year... That may not be such a Bad Idea to focus more on the end result of the Work.

Take time to consider everything and when you decide, be very slow to change your mind...Leadership :goodjob:
...As it has been said, "If it Ain't Broke, Don't Fix it".

Be Direct and use the K.I.S.S. Principle :lol:
 
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