Grigori Museums (and other thoughts)

I love the theme for the Grigori. I see a kind of poetic beauty in an Angelic Agnostic. And I really want to roleplay that, but it's hard when the only way to remove religion is to brutally inquisition. If the Grigori are like the father from Cassiel's story, then religions holding and brutally inquisitioning don't make very much sense.

Originally, I suggested the Luonnotar have their own religion-removing events, but MagisterCultuum yelled at me for it. Or at least I assumed he did. I imagined his response in a yelling voice.

So, since then, I came up with two non-dogmatic ideas for the Grigori. My first was the Grigori Museum, a UU for Pagan Temple. It'd be the same as a Pagan Temple, but with +1 from marble, and a bard specialist instead of a priest (also, maybe, have no prereq tech, so it can be built from the start).

I think it'd fit, thematically, because Grigori society celebrates the hard work of individuals (eg, carve the name of the artist who built the monument). Where better to find this than a museum?

My second idea was having religions peter out of cities, which can be done with an invisible, unadoptable, unfoundable eighth religion. Whenever it spreads to a city, it is removed. Whenever it spreads to a Grigori city, it is removed along with another religion ("Ashen Veil has petered out in X", etc). The "holy building" that spreads this faith could be the Grigori Palace. It'd be more symbolic of people losing interest in faith, as opposed to being brutally inquisitioned. Religions would become more like fads for the Grigori.

Anyway, these are just some passing thoughts. I've got a pretty bad fever right now, so I'm going back to bed. I'll check back later to see what you guys think. I always enjoy a good chat about team mechanics

I'll second your suggestion for a Pagan Temple UB. since they're agnostic, they have no need for a temple.

Both good ideas.

If you want to roleplay Cassiel then you wouldn't need to remove religions. He allows his people to believe what they want, so long as the religion doesn't break any of the Grigori's laws they are allowed to remain in the cities...

rusty217 said:

If you want to roleplay Cassiel then you wouldn't need to remove religions. He allows his people to believe what they want, so long as the religion doesn't break any of the Grigori's laws they are allowed to remain in the cities...

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I'm not saying that Cassiel would force them out, I'm saying religion wouldn't gain a strong foothold among the Grigori. That's actually why I suggested that religions peter out on their own, without player intervention.

I don't recall ever yelling at you for having Luonnatar related events removing religions. I have no problem with that, although perhaps your exact wording was off. In my version I always add a Luonnatar specific Enlighten spell, which despite a different thematic explanation works exactly like Inquisition except ignoring all references to state religion, so they can remove religions from their cities and from any rivals'.



I think a Museum Pagan Temple UB could be quite good. It seems like a later building than a Pagan Temple though, not an earlier one. I would think that Education or Philosophy would be the best prereq. I would probably make it provide 1 Bard and 1 Sage slot, and maybe a percent culture and research bonus.



I'm thinking it may be better to have random events that can happen in any city with a religion where the worship of that religion starts dying out. Most civs would be able to encourage a revival of said religion in the city, but agnostic leaders would have no option but to let it die out. Adding another phantom religion just seems way too complicated.

MagisterCultuum said:

I don't recall ever yelling at you for having Luonnatar related events removing religions. I have no problem with that, although perhaps your exact wording was off. In my version I always add a Luonnatar specific Enlighten spell, which despite a different thematic explanation works exactly like Inquisition except ignoring all references to state religion, so they can remove religions from their cities and from any rivals'.

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Enlighten sounds perfect. Inquisition is too violent for the Luonnatar.

I think a Museum Pagan Temple UB could be quite good. It seems like a later building than a Pagan Temple though, not an earlier one. I would think that Education or Philosophy would be the best prereq. I would probably make it provide 1 Bard and 1 Sage slot, and maybe a percent culture and research bonus.

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If it was pushed up, I'd say Philosophy. The museum, as I see it, is like a standing-tribute to the people of the city (the artists, the sages, the explorers, etc). Rewarding these people for their hardwork falls along the lines of the Grigori philosophy.

I'm thinking it may be better to have random events that can happen in any city with a religion where the worship of that religion starts dying out. Most civs would be able to encourage a revival of said religion in the city, but agnostic leaders would have no option but to let it die out. Adding another phantom religion just seems way too complicated.

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I was thinking about how to do a phantom religion for this. I think if you just add another religion in ReligionInfo.xml, and use python to check when it spreads, it wouldn't be so hard. Also, because an eighth religion was never intended, the slot in the fonts file is blank, so it would default to having no icon (which is good). If it's removed as soon as it spreads, no one will ever be able to convert to it (a permanent holy city can be the Grigori capital, which is fine since they cannot adopt any religion anyway).

I'm gonna pick a nit here, but "agnostic" isn't the right word since Cassiel knows the truth. He's just nonreligious.

Anyway, good call on the museum. I like the idea. Perhaps it can provide an extra happy per owned equipment, or for each dead or high-level adventurer?

I like the idea of a building for a replacement to the Pagan Temple. Museum sounds nice, but I think the reason it was suggested to move it back in the tech tree was because the idea of a museum seems too advanced? Perhaps a simplier idea that accomplishes the same goal of letting artists and individuals share work and ideas? Like a "Forum" building or something.

That also is an interesting idea for an eigth phantom religion. I like it a lot, actually, and you seem to have even figured out an easy way to do it. I think still adding "Enlighten" to Luonnotar would also be nice, to let the player take an active role in it late game.

loocas said:

I'm gonna pick a nit here, but "agnostic" isn't the right word since Cassiel knows the truth. He's just nonreligious.

Anyway, good call on the museum. I like the idea. Perhaps it can provide an extra happy per owned equipment, or for each dead or high-level adventurer?

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If there is an "add equipment" option, it should give +1 Adventurer GPP for each piece.

I like the idea of te Museum UB. Perhaps your two ides could be combined with a twist. Instead of having an invisible religion mechanic that eliminates religions from a city, why not tie waning religious devotion with the Museum UB. It could behave like a Carnival or Freak Show for religions. Once a Museum is built, it would have a chance each turn to eliminate a religion present in the city. For each religion that is "eliminated" the Museum would gain additional benefits (like adding animals to a Carnival). Esentially the Museum would be adding a FoL exhibit or a RoK wing to enhance its utility. Once the Museum has absorbed a religion, that religion would not spread to the city again. Each absorbed religion could ass +2 culture, +1 happy, and +1 GPP for adventurers.

Verdian said:

I like the idea of a building for a replacement to the Pagan Temple. Museum sounds nice, but I think the reason it was suggested to move it back in the tech tree was because the idea of a museum seems too advanced? Perhaps a simplier idea that accomplishes the same goal of letting artists and individuals share work and ideas? Like a "Forum" building or something.

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sounds good. I'd make the "forum"(or equivalent with a different name) the pagan temple UB, and make the museum a grigori-only national wonder, giving additional GPP's (for units lvl x+, equipment added to the museum, amounts of fora around in the empire etc., i don't know what's balanced / codeable)

I think that the ideal name for a replacement to Pagan Temple is "Agora", based on the name of ancient Atheneans' place of having their open philosophical discussions... A "Museum", however, is not a bad idea, since this is the Age of Rebirth, and a Museum containing findings from the previous ages is a possible structure, even early game, withought any contradictions, thematically.

Thunder_Gr said:

I think that the ideal name for a replacement to Pagan Temple is "Agora", based on the name of ancient Atheneans' place of having their open philosophical discussions... A "Museum", however, is not a bad idea, since this is the Age of Rebirth, and a Museum containing findings from the previous ages is a possible structure, even early game, withought any contradictions, thematically.

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I imagine the museum wouldn't have as many ancient artifacts as it would recent works of Grigori artists. Again, it's built to reward the efforts of the people.

Just wanted to chime in that I also like the museum idea, wherever it ends up in the tech tree.

Rystic said:

I imagine the museum wouldn't have as many ancient artifacts as it would recent works of Grigori artists. Again, it's built to reward the efforts of the people.

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Well, "findings" is not always artifacts. A museum can contain anything that strengthen the Grigory culture and stress the valid arguements behind their agnostic stance. So, even "artifacts" from the previous ages, showing the destruction and suffering the Gods brought on the beings of the world is as good as any of the great works of Grigory artists.
This is your idea, though. If, indeed, what you have in mind is artwork, I guess it should go with the "Drama" technology.

An Agora, as I wrote in my previous post, could be a replacement for pagan temple, but it should produce happiness from something other than incense.

I'm not a fan of the religion peter out idea. It would be very annoying to have religions peter out in my borders because I can trade with the Grigori.

Go Boks said:

I'm not a fan of the religion peter out idea. It would be very annoying to have religions peter out in my borders because I can trade with the Grigori.

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It wouldn't remove your religions. In my OP I said it's removed when it spreads to a city, but it's removed and another religion is removed when it spreads to a Grigori city. Sorry if that was unclear.

I'd still like it to be under my control, to be honest. Enlighten as opposed to Inquisition suits the job fine, with a minimum of effort, IMHO.

Thunder_Gr said:

Well, "findings" is not always artifacts. A museum can contain anything that strengthen the Grigory culture and stress the valid arguements behind their agnostic stance.

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But that's not really what the Grigori do. Cassiel doesn't want to stress any stance. He thinks dogmas are dangerous, even rabid agnostic ones.

So, even "artifacts" from the previous ages, showing the destruction and suffering the Gods brought on the beings of the world is as good as any of the great works of Grigory artists.

This is your idea, though. If, indeed, what you have in mind is artwork, I guess it should go with the "Drama" technology.

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It'd be interesting if the museum had 'wings', so after you build it you had a few choices for other buildings (maybe two or three), but could only choose one. An artifact-wing would be possible.

An Agora, as I wrote in my previous post, could be a replacement for pagan temple, but it should produce happiness from something other than incense.

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I like the idea for an Agora, could be a market UU. What kind of bonuses would do you think it'd have?