NC XX: Montezuma

TheMeInTeam

If A implies B...
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
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Hello everybody, it's time to present the 20th installment of the Noble's Club series!

This time we are using:



Whip till you bleed! It's everyone's favorite zealous backstabbing #2 tier (as an AI) warmonger, Montezuma!

The UU is a niche unit but quite useful potentially. The UB? One of the best in the game. It's borderline unlimited whips.

And the start:

Spoiler :



This is a base map, I didn't add any civs or anything. I used a script we've not seen since NC Brennus - global highlands. For those of you who are unfamiliar with it, I suggest checking it out other than in just this game - the maps generated by GH are quite varied, probably as much as fractal.

And here is the standard cut and paste of our Club Doctrine, courtesy of when Bleys was hosting the series and relentlessly vultured:

There are no hard and fast rules here, fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do request that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards.

Tentative posting updates are suggested at:

4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, etc)
500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didnt, met other continent if applicable, etc)
1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

Remember, these are only guidelines. What we really want are your thoughts as the game goes on, so if your strats don't fall into line with those dates, feel free to adjust your reports accordingly.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number of stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series (and the one I learned from!), and all of you for playing.

The WB-save is attached (zipped, they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, I suggest checking out the BUG or HoF Mods), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC XX". This allows you to play with your favorite Mod at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Prince, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Also, it should be noted that although this is a "pre-Monarch" oriented series, you are welcome to play it at levels above Prince. However, the AIs will NOT get their full set of bonus techs (unless your host gets too creative). The main difference is Archery, which the AI normally gets for free at Monarch and above. The main effects of this are in the AIs starting units (warriors instead of archers) and it also creates a tad "slower" AI, since they now have to tech archery themselves.

In addition, because of the variations of using the Scenario menu, your starting Scout/Warrior may not be in exactly the same spot as the one shown. If you're warrior is in a different place, just use it to your advantage!

Starting zip file:

View attachment 201420
 
I'm signing in. Definitely need to get some more noble level games in before I try prince. My scout started 1 NE than in your ss, and showed several more tiles. However, I don't think what I see makes a huge influence on where to start.

I don't see any compelling reason to not settle in place. You get cows, 2 clams, and river, and you're on a plains hill for the extra production.

What could be cool is settling 1 SE and you can have ships cross through Tenoch to both bodies of water. However, I don't think that is a good idea because you lose a turn and from what I see from the scout, it isn't worth it. Still, I always thought "canal" cities were kinda fun. But not a good idea for the capitol or this situation.
 
I'm signing in. Definitely need to get some more noble level games in before I try prince. My scout started 1 NE than in your ss, and showed several more tiles. However, I don't think what I see makes a huge influence on where to start.

I don't see any compelling reason to not settle in place. You get cows, 2 clams, and river, and you're on a plains hill for the extra production.

What could be cool is settling 1 SE and you can have ships cross through Tenoch to both bodies of water. However, I don't think that is a good idea because you lose a turn and from what I see from the scout, it isn't worth it. Still, I always thought "canal" cities were kinda fun. But not a good idea for the capitol or this situation.

You lose a seafood too ;).

If you really want a canal later, don't forget you can just use a fort.
 
You lose a seafood too ;).

If you really want a canal later, don't forget you can just use a fort.
Wow, that's something I didn't know! cool! I'm gonna settle in place, but I think I'm gonna watch a movie and tackle this tomorrow.

edit: you'd gain a rice... but after moving the scout, it's really not a good idea. Just doesn't utilize resources well in addition to losing a turn. A fort is much more practical if i really wanted a canal.
 
Signing in as well. I wanted to play your Louis game, but unfortunately I was too busy at the time. Hopefully, I will get quite a bit of spare time next week to play :) Never played neither Montezuma nor the map type, so I think I will keep it on Prince.

Should be fun whipping! :whipped:

My initial thoughts:
Spoiler :

Judging from the opening screenshot, I see no reason to settle anywhere else but in place. Two seafood and the cows plus a river? Yes, please! Although the spot has quite a few coastal tiles so I don't see any great long-term potential for this city. Perhaps a GP farm would be in order, as it could gain +11F at size 3 already with a Lighthouse. Not bad at all. Even better if there's another food resource hidden in the northern fog, although I'm not counting on that. Plus the cows and the few hills can take care of basic production needs.
 
Global highlands has coast? Highlands has no coast/sea/ocean? I'm i right?

Going to take this on monarch/epic i think, for a conquest win!
 
Monarch/epic, to 10 AD, not dead yet, but I've totally screwed it up:


Spoiler :


techs: agri - ah - mining - masonry - bw - fishing - iw - wheel - writing - pottery - sailing - alpha

3875 - Settle 1W. Plenty of food and I'd rather work that plain mine. 43 gold from a hut.

3850 - Scout from a hut.

3800 - I find Giggle's border to the N. He's pretty close.

3775 - 66 gold from hut.

3525 - Exp from hut.

3100 - Map from the southern hut.

3075 - 75 gold from a hut far to the NE.

2800 - Warrior from another very far away hut. 6 huts so far.

2400 - Teotihuacan settled in Giggle's face:



Big desert to Giggle's east, so he's likely to expand in my direction, putting a lot of culture pressure on my cities. He obviously has to go in a timely fashion.

2175 - BW reveals no copper. Switch to slavery.

1975 - Scout dies to a bear.

1950 - GW completed. Doesn't make much sense now, but if I kill Giggle, I'll have to deal with a huge empty landmass to the NE:



1625 - Tlateloco:



1325 - And Texcoco:



775 - Giggle declares war to steal a worker. I don't know if it's intended, but he didn't enter wheoohrn, just declared right away:



I steal one of his workers.

625 - Giggle captures Texcoco.

525 - And Teotihuacan.

335 - Tlateloco lost as well. Back to the capital.

260 - Giggle's stack:

10 AD - Now he has this stack on Texcoco's hill. My stack is right outside the city, but it's not enough:



My lost cities:





Played like a rookie. Chariots are obviously the way to go vs an axeman UU and horses are right there. Jaguars are useless in this scenario, just a couple for stack defense are enough. But IW is a priority anyway, to connect iron for the axemen.

Bleys' doctrine says "no shame in losing", but this waw played very poorly.

I think I'll restart, but I'll keep this save to see if it's possible to fix this mess.






 
going to take a stab Monarch/Maraton
 
Monarch / Epic

To 10AD

Spoiler :

Settle in place, due to the starting techs, i have 3 warriors then a worker. head directly to CoL via Priest.

I find giggles :rolleyes: Standard settings my ass :lol: ;)



Sadly giggles only had a warrior defending, as the worker was on his cow, well i gained a worker! I hold a choke till the 2nd warrior arrives (2 turns). Combat 1 + generous RNG means i didn;t need a 2nd warrior! Build the Orcale here.



Take CoL as my freebie. bit of a REX, i take the hit and settle a city on the gems, so i have a Fish in the BFC. I gain a Goth event. behind my lines, on one of the ONLY unfogged tiles. I'm more surpised events are on than losing a city. :lol: Take the GLH in the capital as ther majorty of my cities are coastal. Add this to not yet meeting any other AI i guess it will be needed!



Still a little bit of the island to explore, will REX till it's filled. Heading to Lit as marble is in. Have an Acd in Capital already so tech rate is semi-reasonable. Not made fully use of the whip yet. Buildings rather than units will be my focus, unless theere is galley access to more AI.




To 940AD
Spoiler :

Not much extra to report. Settled some fillers, killed countles barbs, like charlie they just keep coming ;) popped IW from a hut. Started to settle beyong the great desert. Got beaten to the path by 1 turn. :( went wonder crazy with SoZ, GL, lost Colo, Mids.



pretty sure of the win once the rest of the land is settled. Hoping to win the Lib race easily, sadly no galley access to islands etc. Will keep up the REX then head to optics after lib. Judging by the wonders completed i'm competing well with the unmet AI.
 
Monarch/Maraton
To 2000bc
Spoiler :
Giggles is close, blocking off a lot of land so he's pactically asking to get Rushed ... due to him havin Vultures i guess Chariots (with the horses just north of my capital) is the best ... charges him with a couple of chariots killing him off in 2060bc,
Land is fairly bad with only a few choice spots for cities, due to a fairly big desert and a mountainous and hilly tundra both counting up to approx 50% of the land on my island ... seems isolated (but haven't been around checking every corner yet)
 
Second try is looking better. Monarch/epic, to 10 AD:

Spoiler :


agri - ah - mining - masonry - bw - wheel - fishing - iw - sailing - pottery - writing - alpha

3975 - settle 1W and 57 gold from hut.

3850 - Hut 88 gold.

3800 - Giggles' border to the N. A couple turns later I notice his city is defended by a warrior. Then I remember the AI don't have monarch techs in this serie. Feels too cheap, if I'd like to rush warriors, I'd play Noble.

3775 - Ocean map from a hut.

3575 - 78 gold hut.

2675 - Scout from hut.

2600 - Teothiuacan:



2250 - Switch to slavery.

2050 - GW done:



1875 - Warrior from that southern hut.

1700 - Tlateloco:



1100 - Quest:



455 - Ready to declare war:



425 - Ur razed.

380 - Giggles' copper pillaged by a pair of Jaguars.

320 - GSpy settled.

305 - First general becomes a jaguar medic. And Eridu is razed:



200 - Quest completed:



200 - Lagash razed.

90 - Lots of defenders in Uruk:



Front at 10 AD. Pillaged Giggles' iron and copper:



And empire:



Giggles has 3 cities and I hope he doesn't expand behind that desert. I need some reinforcements at Uruk or maybe a spy when Alphabet is done, but I have enough points for a single city revolt.
Not sure if I should wipe him out, or stop when Uruk is captured to extort some techs.




 
Here is up to 290 BC. Noble, epic speed.

Spoiler :
Turn 1 looks like this.

I settled in place for the nice food resources (corn too, unbelievable... I'm gonna give that corn to another city probably). I researched AH->Fishing->mining->bronze. This was a bit of a mistake because I made a worker first (despite the ss showing SH) and after the pasture, had nothing to do. While letting my city grow, I was building stonehenge. I dislike having to chop monuments, so this is a wonder i really wanted, especially since Gilgamesh was blocking me in.


Meet Gilgamesh. Not happy about this since he was a thorn in my side in my sitting bull game. However, I am determined not to let him push me around and I vow to seek his destruction.


Archery from a hut... not OP, but nice, cheap city defenders. Besides, no gold from any goody hut, so this was a decent consolation.


My explorer pretty much discovers the whole continent (ss from after he discovers land though).


Looks like it's just me and gilga. If he's gone, I have tons of room to expand and build up a very nice economy. I don't know how ai civs on the other continents will be able to compete if I settle a giant landmass to myself. but first things first, Giggles has got to go!

Ok researched bronze working and well Uruk expands to that copper conveniently right there. I decide to take advantage of my stonehenge and plop a city close by. Stonehenge finished in 2025 BC with a chop.

in 1275 BC, my culture is enough to take over the mine from him. mwahahaha. Can't build anymore vultures. The capital is weak, and i have a strong production town right at his doorstep. Time to pump out Axemen (capitol is doing this as well). In the meantime, I settle a few more cities in between. The southern peninsula with the wine/rice can be settled after the war.

In 305 BC, I get a great prophet. I don't really want to waste him researching meditation, so I settle him in the capitol since our continent has no religion. I'm gonna try and get confucianism, if possible. With my research rate, doesn't seem likely. Maybe I'll just take advantage of my marble and build wonders. without religion, culture seems unlikely so I'll just go space/diplo/or domination route.

Anyway, back to the war. I get about 10 axemen, a couple chariots. He goes down pretty easy as his defense is pretty paltry. I didn't allow him to build up many vultures, 2-3 perhaps. And he just had 2-3 archers per town, that just fell against the axe onslaught. The C1 and CR1 upgrades, plus CR2 after one victory made taking his towns pretty simple. I decided not to use jaguars for some reason, although they would have been more effective against archers I suppose, but ineffective against the few vulture defenders.


290 BC, Giggles has his last laugh and is extinguished by my little army. I razed only one city as the other three were pretty good. Uruk will be a pretty good commercial site to help get my economy back. There's a lot of nice land far to the east. priority now is to get research rate up as quickly as possible. I need cottages up quickly. Main danger I see now is not getting my research rate back up and fall behind the civs overseas.

State of the empire.

 
Not a bad start - although I am 'stuck' and could use some advice.

It started with a hut!
Spoiler :

Turn 0/750 (4000 BC) [25-Jan-2009 21:12:54]
Tenochtitlan founded
Tenochtitlan begins: Warrior (8 turns)
Research begun: Fishing (8 Turns)
chnaged my mind!
Research begun: Animal Husbandry (17 Turns)

Turn 1/750 (3975 BC) [25-Jan-2009 21:14:17]
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Masonry
Tribal village results: technology

Next hut gave me anoth scout, then I met a neighbour - quite close too!

No idea what to expect from him - I will have to look him up
then another hut!

Turn 9/750 (3775 BC) [25-Jan-2009 21:16:11]
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Animal Husbandry
Tribal village results: technology
Research begun: Fishing (8 Turns)

Sod's law that the result was the very tech I was ½ way through researching!

fifth hut!

Turn 16/750 (3600 BC) [25-Jan-2009 21:18:07]
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Archery
Tribal village results: technology

LOL

I finished researching fishing and then went Mining - BW

Mistake making my worker too quickly, He pastured the cows and then 'rested' for a load of turns as he couldn't min until he could chop he he didn't know the wheel or agriculture.
sent a boat to the first clams.
Got a 2nd warrior from another hut. Fully explored the island - 2 scouts, 2 warriors, 1 worker, 1 boat at this stage.
Capital @ 2 pop start Barracks

BW done - only bronze is on Giggles border - grrrr.
Make another warrior and queue settler - Mistake - should have chopped a settler quicker.

By the time I send him ( to a ROCKING location btw) Giggles has mined the bronze and sent out his own settler - luckily to claim the heffelumps not the fish and hills.

Pump out some Archers and Jaqs and another settler to claim clams and gem mines.

Researched Agri and then IW.
Built stonehenge for the auto monument culture and then discovered Iron in capital's BFC - HURRAH!
researched wheel and just got it hooked up.

What to do now?
Declare on Giggles, slap him and then have a lonely time (isolated start) or try to live with him and defend?

Current situation.








What to do now?
Declare on Giggles, slap him and then have a lonely time (isolated start) or try to live with him and defend?

 
Emperor/Epic, 825 BC

Spoiler :

Settled in place and teched Fishing-Mining. Build scout and after that a fishing boat. My 2 scouts popped huts for 2 more scouts, but also 2 techs: Masonry and Bronze Working!

Continued with the worker techs Agriculture-AH-The Wheel and then Meditation-Priesthood-Writing and finished the Oracle in 1725 BC and took CoL as free tech. Rexed a bit while teching Pottery and Iron Working.

I used the early Confucianism for border pops, so I didn't build any monuments. I'll be getting a Great Prophet for a shrine in 12 turns to boost the economy.

Giggles did a good job at boxing me in. I have 4 cities and only room for 1 more in the south. I'm also dangerously underpowered with just a couple of chariots and warriors. The only way forward is conquest of Sumeria. I'm building granaries, barracks and sacrificial altars for the future army.


 
Alright, picking up from 290 BC to 1500 AD

Spoiler :
Not much to report. I have this whole island to myself, so I'm just building infrastructure, cottages to get my economy going. Happiness is an issue so I'm beelining monarchy for HR, and for wine.

I figured I needed to meet the other AIs to trade techs with to speed things up, so I go for optics, build some caravels and go exploring. I'm slowly settling the rest of the continent.

In 1000 AD, I meet my first rival since Giggles...The Meh. I trade some techs for Calendar, monotheism, and Horsebackriding. Good backfill, but I'm ahead of him techwise. So being isolated didn't hurt too bad.


Next rival is Horn Hat. He won't trade me anything, but I think I have a tech advantage over him.

Next up is wonder spammer. He is living up to his namesake. I get him to pleased pretty quickly. But all these people are on other continents so I'm safe until they get astronomy. My research rate is already better than the AI from building up my economy.


I found a religion! Doesn't impact me much, but monasteries are nice for some extra research.


Then I meet anti rush cow. Way behind in tech and worst enemy of horn hat, as they are at war with each other. Good for me. Weak rivals. So far, only Wonder Spammer is even close to me, and I'll be way ahead in not that long a time.


Last but not least, meet Dike Hater, weakest civ so far surprisingly.


After a few centuries of exploring, this is what the world looks like. Lots of islands, most of them worthless. The one to the west is the only one I'm going to settle as it's green and has gold, and a river.


Hmm, barb village conveniently in a place I want to build a city. sweet.

I pick astronomy with liberalism so I can trade AI for resources and open more trade routes. Also, can get settlers over to the western island.




Here's the state of affairs in 1500 AD. I have a pretty substantial tech lead, so the game is in the bag at this point. The only civ that can even research astronomy is Dike Hater, and he is weak. So I have plenty of time to build coast defense with technologically superior troops.

Will probably go for a domination/diplo victory (vassals voting for me). I could do space race, but building the parts I find boring. I think I need to start trying prince as most noble games I'm winning pretty handily now. If there was another civ on my continent, could have been a bit more challenging. Taking out Gilga early was a good idea.
 
Tried deity ... two times. :rolleyes:

Spoiler :

First time the plan was to get glh and try blocking gilg from the majority of the island. (move the capital so maintenance wouldn't kill me)
While I was still building glh, gilg vulture rushes me... game over.

Second time took a more standard path. Focused more on expansion with archers with the plan to attack gilg after IW. Gilg vulture rushes me again just after I settled my second city... :rolleyes:
Anyways jaguar vs vulture ... would have very few success I would guess. I think this is a hard set up. =/


Funny thing is after these two losses I started a deity game with Kublai Kahn. Doing fine and having a big stack of axes ready to dow Saladin. GILGAMESH VULTURE RUSHES ME!! Even though: 1-Pacal was between me and him. 2-I didn't get any diplo penalties with him. 3-Other and bordering civs had a different religion. 4-I actually had a sod, just not in the right place.

F this guy. :gripe:

Thanks for ruining my day TMIT, now I developed a Gilgaphobia. :p

 
Tried deity ... two times. :rolleyes:

Spoiler :

First time the plan was to get glh and try blocking gilg from the majority of the island. (move the capital so maintenance wouldn't kill me)
While I was still building glh, gilg vulture rushes me... game over.

Second time took a more standard path. Focused more on expansion with archers with the plan to attack gilg after IW. Gilg vulture rushes me again just after I settled my second city... :rolleyes:
Anyways jaguar vs vulture ... would have very few success I would guess. I think this is a hard set up. =/


Funny thing is after these two losses I started a deity game with Kublai Kahn. Doing fine and having a big stack of axes ready to dow Saladin. GILGAMESH VULTURE RUSHES ME!! Even though: 1-Pacal was between me and him. 2-I didn't get any diplo penalties with him. 3-Other and bordering civs had a different religion. 4-I actually had a sod, just not in the right place.

F this guy. :gripe:

Thanks for ruining my day TMIT, now I developed a Gilgaphobia. :p


Spoiler :
You should have went chariots, as they are the axe counter.
 
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