Crusades Scenario/Minimod (work-in-progress)

Hello All!

This is going to be a MOD about the crusades, and maybie a bit after that. It will definatly cover the seven crusades, the people's crusade, and the children's crusade.

Civilizations:


New Resources, New Terrain


New Units


Techs


Civics


New Wonders


This is going to be a Warlords project, as you can't get BTS for mac (my username!!!). Also don't expect SDK work ('cause there is none for mac! ).

This is my first publish of anything so please don't go crazy about historical inaccuracies . THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS!!!!!! I wouldn't expect the scenario for a couple months, and the mod might take longer than a year to finish. If anyone is interested in working on this with me (That means you python people!) please PM me or post here.

Thank you!

PROGRESS
Ideas - 95%
Map - 95%
Art - 75%
XML - 10%
Python - 5%

Ok, here is a file with the map in it (yes, this is v3.0). it includes a readme (please read!), the file, and the map I based it on. feel free to critique it, but don't be too harsh. where I intend to put cities are landmarked in brackets. I need to know some medivel cities where the ???'s are, and would like to know some more about the cities with the ? after them.

Place it in your publicmaps folder, open it in civilization, and choose the default settings. Enter Worldbuilder to view. ignore or delete the people there - they will eventually be deleted.

Edit: THIS FILE HAS BEEN REMOVED DUE TO IT BEING OUTDATED

I'll try it when i get home to my civ comp. Looks really good .

Looks good. I would reccomend Byzantium being playable because they were a major part in the crusades, the Emperor Alexius I Comnenus asked Pope Urban II for a crusade, the Byzantine army was going to support the Crusaders but two deserters from the Crusader Siege of Antioch told Alexius that the crusaders lost so Alexius retreated to defend against the expected Turkish counterattack. Later, the Emperor Manuel I Comnenus went to war with the Crusaders near Antioch and Armenia Cilicia. Later, the crusaders sacked Constantinople in the 4th Crusade. This prompted the pope to quit sending crusaded east and instead attack the pagan Lithuanians and the Orthodox russians.

I would reccomend getting rid of the civ 'Muslims'. The muslim world at the time of the first crusade was split between the Turks, Fatmids, and the Buyids out of Baghdad. The Fatimids of Egypt were eventualy overthrown by Saladin the Kurd and were very sucessful against the Crusaders and later Mongols. Saladin created the Ayyubid Dynasty. The Turks and Egyptians should be playable though.

Why would you include Venice? The only contribution they made was sacking Constantinople in the 4th Crusade, beyond that they did next to nothing.

I would reccomend getting rid of England, France, and the HRE and making the Crusader States playable. To simulate the crusades you could simply have the Crusader States build the units or you can have the crusaders spawn. That would take some very simple python. If you feel like copy&pasting, the python is in the mod Greek World. I can probably track it down if you really want.

Lastly, if you want to include some other minor civs, the Danishmends of the Taurus would work (fought against the Byzantines and other alot), the Seljuk Turks in Asia Minor, the cities of Aleppo, Mosul, Damascus, and Baghdad. (Antioch could be included) The smaller independant Arab states such as Acre and others could be shown by barbs. You could also add Armenia Cilicia (many armenians fled here after the Seljuks sacked Van. The area was later 'commandeered' after Manzikert by the Byzantine Commander of the Imperial Tagmata after Manzikert. I think it was a Nikphoras or someone else, I forget who.)

Its my personal opinion that you should stay away from the Northern/Baltic Crusades that were the majority of the ones after the 4th (I think the 7th was against Egypt but the French king failed miserably). These would be hard to implement without turning the mod into a full blown medieval mod, which is already done by the European Middle Ages mod. It doest work the best on mac but someone made a mac friendly version I believe.


NOTE: These are all my opinions, I am not trying to tell you what to do. I fully acknowledge that this is your mod and that you are making it.

Does it work for XP? I would like to take a look at it.

The map looks pretty good, although it is rather small. Once this gets going, I could maybe do some art for you, provided my own mod gets going.

Just curious though as to why you decided to copyright it? I can't think of anyone else who does this, and it will almost certainly discourage any modmodders.

edit: oh and once a working version gets going you should post this in the mac-compatible mods index.

I would reccomend Byzantium being playable because they were a major part in the crusades, the Emperor Alexius I Comnenus asked Pope Urban II for a crusade, the Byzantine army was going to support the Crusaders but two deserters from the Crusader Siege of Antioch told Alexius that the crusaders lost so Alexius retreated to defend against the expected Turkish counterattack.

Click to expand...

I don't think I will make them playable, because it seems that they didn't do any real crusading. I was going to include the sacking of Constantinople too though.

I would reccomend getting rid of the civ 'Muslims'. The muslim world at the time of the first crusade was split between the Turks, Fatmids, and the Buyids out of Baghdad. The Fatimids of Egypt were eventualy overthrown by Saladin the Kurd and were very sucessful against the Crusaders and later Mongols. Saladin created the Ayyubid Dynasty. The Turks and Egyptians should be playable though.

Click to expand...

I didn't know that, so I probably will make three muslim civs. Thanks!

Why would you include Venice [Itallian City States?]? The only contribution they made was sacking Constantinople in the 4th Crusade, beyond that they did next to nothing.

Click to expand...

I was going to have them because they shipped supplies and re-enforcements to the holy land and crete is empty otherwise. I guess I could leave them out.

I would reccomend getting rid of England, France, and the HRE and making the Crusader States playable. To simulate the crusades you could simply have the Crusader States build the units or you can have the crusaders spawn.

Click to expand...

I guess I will combine E, F, and HRE into one Crusaders civ and keep an unplayable Crusader States. I was going to have E, F, and HRE troops spawn to support the crusader states, who build their own units.

Lastly, if you want to include some other minor civs, the Danishmends of the Taurus would work (fought against the Byzantines and other alot), the Seljuk Turks in Asia Minor, the cities of Aleppo, Mosul, Damascus, and Baghdad. (Antioch could be included) The smaller independant Arab states such as Acre and others could be shown by barbs. You could also add Armenia Cilicia (many armenians fled here after the Seljuks sacked Van. The area was later 'commandeered' after Manzikert by the Byzantine Commander of the Imperial Tagmata after Manzikert. I think it was a Nikphoras or someone else, I forget who.)

Click to expand...

Danashmends - who and where were they?
Seljuk Turks - were going to be Turks
Aleppo, ect., - are these part of the turks? I think they should fall under the Buyids.
Armenia cillia - who and where were they?

Its my personal opinion that you should stay away from the Northern/Baltic Crusades that were the majority of the ones after the 4th (I think the 7th was against Egypt but the French king failed miserably).

Click to expand...

I believe the 5th crusade went into Egypt. I haven't researched the 6, 7th crusades though. I might change it once I have. Also the childrens crusade was between the 5th and 6th crusades, so I should include the fifth.

Does it work for XP? I would like to take a look at it.

Click to expand...

Yes it should (ask AlanH to be sure). There may be some funny folders, but the files should be in there.

The map looks pretty good, although it is rather small. Once this gets going, I could maybe do some art for you, provided my own mod gets going.

Just curious though as to why you decided to copyright it? I can't think of anyone else who does this, and it will almost certainly discourage any modmodders.

edit: oh and once a working version gets going you should post this in the mac-compatible mods index.

Click to expand...

I might like a few new unit arts, buildings and resources, and I can't do them myself.

I guess I am paranoid. Once it is finished, I will probably allow people to just change it and give me credit.

I will.

BTSformac said:

I might like a few new unit arts, buildings and resources, and I can't do them myself.

Click to expand...

Well, as far as custom art is concerned, I, along with Sedna17 and AlanH have discovered how to create nearly all types of custom art on a mac (for free!)
The only thing I'm having trouble with is flags and buttons (stupid alpha channels )
If your interested in learning these sorts of things, don't worry, it isn't too difficult and there is tons of help available on the Forum.

And its good to see another mac modder around here!

Just because Byzantium didnt do any Crusading, they were still a major political presence in the Middle East until Myriokephalon in 1176.

The reason I suggested the numerous smaller states is because at the time the Middle East was a very chaotic place. The 2 major powers, Byzantium and The Abbasid Sultanate had each crubled, with the Buyids from Persia in Baghdad and Byzantium in chaos after their defeat at Manzikert in 1071 by the Seljuks. After that, the Seljuks moved in and founded the Sultanate of Rum (Rome). This soon collapsed with the Seljuks in Asia Minor with the breakaway states in Syria along with the breakaway states from the now defunct Abbasid Sultanate.

Why are the Crusaders and the Crusader States separate? The crusader states were the crusaders, they were just the latin principalities that were establish, called by the French the Outremer. In addition, the Crusading armies from Europe were very amalgamated, even though they were separate countries, they still traveled as one force.

Crete/Cyprus had been conquered by the Knights of St. John, make them Crusader States.

I think including the Childrens Crusade is a bit pointless, all that happened was an indeterminate number of children tried to get to the Holy Land via Spain, many died in the Alps, and when they finaly got to spain they were allegedy sold into slavery by Moorish pirates. The story has been increadibly hyped up by Victorian Europe and is hard to tell what is fact or fantasy. Lastly, are you going to include the Baltic Crusades, where the majority of the later ones were? If so, then you will have to include scads of other civs.


Armenia Cilicia 'submitted'/conquered by the crusaders and evolved into a semi-independant crusader state that was conquered by the Byzantine Emperor Manuel I Komnenus. They were alot like the Kingdom of Edessa.

The Danishmend Turks were just another Turkish Sub-Group, only they managed to resist the Crusaders and Byzantines.

If you are looking to make it semi-accurate, I would reccomend reading Wikipedia articles, they are generaly accurate about facts. There are also a bunch of good books on the subject by Sir Steven Runciman, first published in the 50's but are still around and decent. A longer book focused on the first crusade called The First Crusade: A New History, by Thomas Asbridge is a good read also. Lastly, if you are looking for a big tome of knowledge is God's War. I forget the author but it covers all of the crusades, it is a massive book, I started it in early January and I just got past the 3rd crusade.

Well, perhaps the byzantines should be more major than I first thought, but I don't think I will make them playable.

I also don't want too many muslim civs, so I think I will stick to the three.

Why the crusaders and crusader states are seperate


Crete and cyprus will probably switch later in the game then.

the childrens crusade will probably just be a python popup that gives all muslim civs workers build faster for a few turns. I will include the 6th and 7th crusades as at least a popup, and (after researching them) I might make them have units.

Once again, I will probably keep to the three muslim civs, just for stability.

I am currently reading the wikipedia pages, and I might look at the books if I can find them.

please, any suggestions for the cities with the question marks?!?

civs update - out of date, see first post


timeline events - out of date, see first post

It actualy doesnt matter if you make Byzantines playable or not, it is easy to change in xml. I still dont hink that the crusaders and crusader states should be separate. When crusaders came they fell under the jurisdiction of either the Grand Marshall of Jerusalem or the King. Lastly, the cities that were conquered by the crusaders were immediatly turned into feudal style principalities. Besides, trying to code how you envision the crusaders will most likely be hard for a beginner level project.

The Ayyubids and Fatimids existing at the same time wont work the Ayyubids were the dynasty that was created when Saladin overthrew the Fatimid Grand Vizer. The change was really smooth. Saladins uncle had already basicly removed all power from the Grand Vizer. Sort of like how Charles Martel the FRank overthrew the Merovignian french. He basicly already had the power. The Ayyubids could be changed to 'unallied muslim cities' or something like that representing the powerful cities like Tarsus and the Cillician Gates, Antioch, Edessa, Aleppo, and so on.

How you currently have it, playing as the Crusaders will be next to pointless because as soon as they have conquered Palestine they have nothing really to do.

For the timeline the chronology is messed up (assuming it is in chronological order). Manzikert happened in 1071, the first crusade was called in 1095. Saladin came to power about 10-ish years after Jerusalem fell. To weaken Byzantium enough for the 4th crusade to work, the Battle of Myrioukephalon in 1123(spelling is slightly wrong and the date is probably off) where the Byzantine army was slaughtered in an attack by the Seljuks.

whoops! I guess I read the battle of manzikert as 1176 somewhere! It has been replaced with the battle of myrioukephalon. I didn't look hard into the dates. I was only guessing with most... The saladin events have been (temporarily) removed.

did you mean saladin came to power 10 years after jerusalem fell to the crusaders, or ten years after it fell again to muslims?

I was kind of hoping to have most of the muslim areas eventually come togeather. do you have any ideas to make this happen while keeping it kinda accurate?

after the crusaders have conquered palestine they can try to conquer other muslim or barbarian cities. remember, if the human player is strong enough, they should be allowed to attack other areas. this will allow them to attack without too much need to worry about defending. the specific crusades dates will not only be the only times when the crusaders get units, but they will be major points.

as for the programming, I was thinking most of it would be copy-and-paste from the american revolution. I was also hoping for someone to help me with the python...

oh, and to flintlock1415: I guess I could make them myself; they may not look the best though... This would also probably need some flags, so a person running a pc could help me with that.

edit: oh, and thanks for all your help ajidica!

two points about the crusader states;

1. It's not like the crusaders were recruiting the locals.
2. I would like to hear from some other people about this. perhaps we should cool it for a bit ajidica?

What do you think about the crusaders only vs. crusaders and crusader states?
if someone could pm me on how to make a poll, I would make it one...

Hm, if you start a new thread there's an option to include a poll...

In general: hope you complete this! (Over the past year there have been at least 2 Crusade mods, but neither included a scenario, nor did they get finished - so I finally released The Crusades! unmodded.)

Although Ajica has valubale ideas on this time period - being a bit of a Byzantium/Middle Ages buff - I think you should follow your own ideas mostly; after the mod is finished, people can (and probably will) add/mod in their own ideas. (For one: while Byzantium was still relatively powerful at the early stage, the mere fact that they requested Western Christian help against their Turkish adversaries - finally resulting in the 1st Crusade - indicates that they are no longer the supreme Levant power they used to be. Once the Crusade started, being bigger than anticipated by the Byzantine emperor, it acquired its own dynamic, ushering in the era of the Crusades. In short: Byzantium can be a Minor civ (although this does pose some problems for Crusades running across Byzantine territory, it's IMO an accurate way to represent the effect of an - in this case Christian - army on the move, even through relatively neutral territory).

thanks for the opinion JEELEN. I was thinking the byzantines would have a fair amount of units, even if they aren't very agressive.

and does anybody have any ideas for a seljuk unique unit?

Seljuk UU ideas:
Turcoman Horse Archer: The Turks were known for their horse archers. They would get high movement, withdrawal, and first strikes.
Askaris: Turkish raiders, like Turkomans
Sipahis: Turkish/Byzantine/Arab nobles subjugated by the turks. They served as effective heavy horse archers.

The turkish infantry until the Jannisaries were pretty pathetic to say the least.

thanks for those ideas Ajidica!

some extra resources I am hoping for

Lemon is already in several existing mods. What would Wasteland be? (There's already Marsh available, perhaps you can use that?)

Wasteland would be a semi-desert for most of arabia because it wasn't a real desert. I called it wasteland because I was hoping to borrow it from somebody, and that is what they called it. a more appropriate name would be semi-desert.

It is really easy to rename stuff, just go into the text xml file. If you cant figure it out from tutorials (XML is 'idiot proof', eg: cut and paste) I can show you how.