The Ultimate Trading Round

I had fallen hopelessly behind on the Sid level (I only had researched Alphabet). At this point, one of my good AI friends had already reached the middle ages!!!! Realistically I shouldn't have had a good chance. However, I continued my research of Writing anyway. I finally obtained Writing and found to my happiness that one AI hadn't researched it yet!

I had been saving my gold and trading some already, so I had about 2,000 gold in my treasury. This would be key to my success -- you need something to get the ball rolling, so to speak! The year was 570 BC.

I first made the obvious trade: Writing for Mathematics. Two of my neighbors lacked Mathematics and I figured I could get somewhere with this.

I continued pretty logically, always trying to obtain the most useful technology. By doing this, I perpetually ensured myself more and more opportunities. I also freely gave up my gold to make more expensive purchases; eventually, I knew I would have enough technologies to easily make back of all of my gold.





















(at this point I gifted each respective AI into the Middle Ages -- except for Greece (already in), Byzantines (already in), Persia (my neighbor )
















That's eighteen trades in all!

Not only was I the most advanced civilization now (I was the only one with all technologies -- I even had Literature over the Byzantines), but I was also by far the richest: the AI had 0 gold combined.



The only negative to come out of this was the ridiculous knowledge that I had no horses...but I found a source on a nearby island to go claim so no worries.

-Elear

Congratulations Amazing what one can do with an open mind and the right choices.

Nicely done Elear! Do we have a Huge milk run here in the works? What settings do you have for the game? One thing seems fishy to me.... 4 gpt for 67 gold. I don't know the Sid AI-human trade rate exactly, but I do know that the Deity trading rate goes at a ratio of 1 gpt for 18 gold (human player gpt, 18 gold AI). So, when banking, I always trade at exactly that ratio. E.G. say Cathy has 47 gold in her treasury. Then I'll trade her 2 gpt for 36 gold and leave her 11 gold in her treasury. What's the cheapest upgrade available, 30 gold for a 10 shield increase like from a knight to a cavalry? Anything cost 15 gold to upgrade? Anyways, if they have below 18 gold, I don't see all too much of an upgrade problem and anything they buy with that money seems like they would have gotten anyways. So, with your game, I would have traded 3 gpt for 54 gold and left them 13 gold in their treasury. Trust me, I didn't figure that out the first time I tried banking.

At Sid level, the going rate is nine percent, I don't know about Deity. Therefore, I cheated on that and I should have done it more exactly, like you said, but I wanted to be able to say they had 0 gold after the trades. Don't worry, I realize the "interest rate".

As for a Huge/Sid run...well...possibly, but I think it's quite presumptious to say that at this point. I really don't want to elaborate very much here, because this thread isn't about prospective HoF runs. Needless to say, I'll open a thread down in the HoF forum if I see more promise out of this game.

Settings are nothing original, and I've used them before to play similar games (you might find some of my previous Sid games archived somewhere...)

edit: Another key is being able to continue to keep up throughout the Middle Ages as I accumulate Horsemen/Knights, save gold, and get to Cavalry. All of this is one thing, but I showed in my Huge/Sid/Diplomatic game how difficult it can be if one civilization becomes too dominant in the tech race. You need two "advanced" civilizations to work with to become a good banker, because monopoly prices are too expensive. Stealing techs may be a part of my strategy, but I doubt I can get away with it as my sole research method again.

Impressive!

Holy Cow!

Very impressive, Elear!
Pardon my ignorarance: What's the benefit of selling GPT for lump sum gold at a discount?

Dude, this should be posted as a prime example of awesome trading in tips/tricks articles/threads

PS: way to (essentially) rob Hammi of Republic and all of his gold for currency and monarchy haha...

Very nicely done.

splunge said:

Very impressive, Elear!
Pardon my ignorarance: What's the benefit of selling GPT for lump sum gold at a discount?

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First of all, it lets you go ahead and rush stuff. Also, in one of Moonsinger's games, she pointed out that if you sell gpt for lump sum gold and the AI getting the gpt is killed off, there's no "beneficiary." IOW, if that AI is killed off, you get to keep the lump sum and stop paying the gpt.

Thanks everyone.

As for GPT for lump sums, really you don't have to even kill them off. Tricking them into declaring war is all that is needed, then not only do you have the GPT, but you have much more gold to spend on upgrades or trades.

The main danger is feeding a strong AI too much GPT, thus turning them into a runaway civ. That's why it's important to eventually "cancel" larger GPT trades.

It is mildly exploitative, maybe...I wouldn't use it normally but why not? Sid is exploitative of the human.

Elear said:

At Sid level, the going rate is nine percent, I don't know about Deity.

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At Deity we have .9*20 (20=1 gpt)=18 gold for 1 gpt. So, that's a going rate of ninety percent or .9. Nine percent would mean .09*20=1.8 gold for 1 gpt. I think you meant ninety, and consequently Deity and Sid have the same going rate.

Elear said:

You need two "advanced" civilizations to work with to become a good banker, because monopoly prices are too expensive.

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I don't think you need such luck. Moonsinger's 80k journal talks about Russia having 4 turn research and pretty much running away, I think. "For example, at one point in my game, Russia was the tech leader and also was the richest civ. She managed to come up with new tech in every 4 turns. Since the rest of the Civ was pretty much out of gold; they were owing Russia and me a lot of gpt and couldn't afford to buy any thing else from me (you can easily test this by offering them something for as little as 1gpt; if they couldn't even afford 1gpt, they don't have anything else to give). In this case, if I buy any tech from Russia, I won't be able to sell it to anyone else. It was a perfect setting for me to get loan after loan from Russia until she ran out of money (as shown in the previous screenshot). Shortly after that, she declared war on me; I ended up with at least 4000 gold in profit (excluding the amount that I already repaid her). Of course, I used that money to unite the world against her. Since everyone were at war against Russia, she couldn't trade with anyone and eventually had to trade some of her techs in exchange for peace." http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=88786&page=2

It doesn't seem like any tricks got used here. It does seem kind of hidden what happened here with Russia. I'll guess Russia made it through to at least the middle of the industrial ages if not even the modern age as probably a Democracy. But, then Cathy revolted.... and went Fascist. Or maybe she went Democracy-Communist-Democracy-Fascist. Or maybe even Democracy-Communist-Democracy-Communist-Democracy-Fascist or something like that. In other words, I suspect Cathy finally started to run out of money when she revolted due to her war weariness (it doesn't matter the level, the AIs can't war very well in a representative government for very long all too often). Then, going broke, Cathy got aggressive and declared war to get her treasury up. I said possibly modern age, right? The strategy surely requires quite a bit of patience.

The AIs can't upgrade without gold in their treasury, so you should theoretically face less advanced units and thus have an easier time fishing for leaders and killing them.

I don't know where to put this note, so I'll throw it here since it's obvious that Elear at least *wants* a stellar Huge Sid histographic game. His rather late learning of Writing gave me this idea...

Play as the Maya of course on 60% archipelago, wet, warm, 5 billion, with your opponents as Persia, Ottomans (just eat them having Sipahi, little money for upgrades so don't sweat it, and Chamnix's game shows them as not all too bad), Greece, Korea, Byzantines, Germany, Russia, and Sumeria for all the free techs. Who's missing? Consequently, your first tech research should be... And you'll probably have to play a slew of starts until... And you use him for... With all of that, you won't have to worry about a javelin thrower that way, have one AI at least slightly weaker, have a little more cash later, don't have to pay or put shields towards a certain improvement in your homeland, and your core develops faster implying territory grabbed faster through settling (maybe more territory settled) easier time of getting out settlers and workers, and quicker production implying an earlier start on your warring or more units when you do start warring.

But can you delay getting to Writing or Literature by going that route? Would you need to do a max run on Alphabet or Writing then?

Who's missing? Consequently, your first tech research should be... And you'll probably have to play a slew of starts until... And you use him for...

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What?

edit: I'm thinking you were going to suggest omitting Babylon to pop a Ceremonial Burial SGL to rush the Pyramids and start an early GA without the Javelins but didn't get around to finishing your sentences...

I'll PM you, maybe, to avoid this thread rambling on in a jumble of thereotical strategy about very specific attempts and game settings. I have some interesting concepts to share with you. Let me know; I don't mind continuing to post but this is not really the best forum to do so, once again, this was simply about a nice trading sequence.

Elear said:

I'm thinking you were going to suggest omitting Babylon to pop a Ceremonial Burial SGL to rush the Pyramids and start an early GA without the Javelins but didn't get around to finishing your sentences

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That's what I meant, I just didn't want to say it, but rather imply it. Sorry to co-opt the thread.

Spoonwood said:

. . . . Play as the Maya of course on 60% archipelago, wet, warm, 5 billion, with your opponents as Persia, Ottomans (just eat them having Sipahi, little money for upgrades so don't sweat it, and Chamnix's game shows them as not all too bad), Greece, Korea, Byzantines, Germany, Russia, and Sumeria for all the free techs.

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Gamely trying to follow this as a 'umble Monarch player, I have to ask: why exactly wet/warm/5Gyr? To hold down AI productivity with all the jungles/lack of mountains, hills, on the supposition that you can figure out how to out-produce from that starting condition?

kk

Snarkhunter said:

Gamely trying to follow this as a 'umble Monarch player, I have to ask: why exactly wet/warm/5Gyr? To hold down AI productivity with all the jungles/lack of mountains, hills, on the supposition that you can figure out how to out-produce from that starting condition?

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In a histographic game you eventually want to have as many citizens as possible. And under jungles there is always grassland providing four food after irrigation and railing. And the same counts for less tundra of course...

wow
Well done, trader!
When I do a trade round I contact those lowers on the points list first and seek to build tecs to trade till i get to contact the leading civ (other than mine)

levi Limestone said:

wow
Well done, trader!
When I do a trade round I contact those lowers on the points list first and seek to build tecs to trade till i get to contact the leading civ (other than mine)

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Yep! That's exactly what I did. Byzantine was the tech leader; notice I did no dealings with her until I had climbed my way up the proverbial "ladder" of AIs, so to speak.

Spoonwood said:

One thing seems fishy to me.... 4 gpt for 67 gold. I don't know the Sid AI-human trade rate exactly, but I do know that the Deity trading rate goes at a ratio of 1 gpt for 18 gold (human player gpt, 18 gold AI). So, when banking, I always trade at exactly that ratio.

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Subsequently, Elear has said that the SID "interest rate" is 9%. On Chamnix's current SID HOF thread, he makes mention of borrowing 112 gold from the Zulu for 8 gpt (I presume that's the best deal he could get...). My own perception is that I pay more and more for each subsequent loan when existing loans are already outstanding. Possible? Any others have this experience? I can recall similar terms to those quoted in Chamnix's thread, and I believe it was for a second (or subsequent) loan. Apart from Moonsinger revealing the banking strategy in the first place, has anyone ever done any meaningful research on how it works?

Not really meaningful research, but I think attitude has a little something to do with it. So, a polite civ might give you a little more or charge a little less. Or it might be the AI agression. You could try and see if there is any difference between Germany and France for example.