Pacifism Civic

WarKirby

WarKirby

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I'd like to talk about this civic. I really don't think it's worth much.

Unlike most concepts in FFH, Pacifism is actually weaker than in vanilla Civ, where it gave +100% great person rate. Now it only gives a 50% bonus, while still retaining the increased unit support costs, and increased war weariness.

Even in vanilla Civ, I never used it that much. I feel that +100% GP rate is a bit much, and that it's too specialised. Would probably make Altar victories too easy. I think reducing that in FFH is a good idea, but that it needs something else added to make up for it.

Some ideas:

  • +x% culture in all cities, due to people having greater freedom of expression and no miltary service.
  • +1 trade routes in all cities. Trade is the enemy of all violent passions.
  • +5 relations modifier with good civs. "You make the world a better place"
  • +2 happiness in all cities, due to less crime and more peaceful lives

I'm not really suggesting ALL of the above at once, maybe just choose some, or throw in other ideas?

I'm playing an Elohim game now, and I really want to use pacifism for he feel of it, but it's honestly a very poor civic choice, and has very little real benefit for me. The extra GP rate alone isn't worth either a serious economic hit, or having poor defences.
 
WarKirby said:
*post*
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I completely agree. As it stands, pacifism is an incredibly bad civic, and should be switched out of as soon as possible.
 
Back when Beeri was spiritual and could do his worldspell on turn 1 I'd do that, then switch to pacifism for 25 turns to make that GE come out faster.

Uh... that's about all I ever did with it. Yeah, it's pretty bad.
 
Monkeyfinger said:
Back when Beeri was spiritual and could do his worldspell on turn 1 I'd do that, then switch to pacifism for 25 turns to make that GE come out faster.

Uh... that's about all I ever did with it. Yeah, it's pretty bad.
Click to expand...

Yup, same here, that's the ONLY time I've ever used pacifism
 
I have a hard time imagining a Pacifist civilization would be building all these military units in the first place. (But otherwise you get a short game.) And why would Pacifism increase the incidence of Great Generals?
 
I use it early game to pop out my first great priest. Helps your game when you're popping earth mother at turn 80 or lower.
The problem is that the military cost is too high. You can't even properly defend yourself. It would be much better if pacifism decreased military production and greatly increased the cost of your units when they aren't in your territory. I know the game already increases the cost when they're away, so it should be possible to bump that up by x2 or 3 without too much trouble.
Using this method, pacifism would be a good civic for builders but terrible for conquerors. Even if you just switch civics whenever you want to go to war, the hit you took to military production makes it harder to properly amass armies beforehand.
 
Running Pacifism is practical only if you are alone in a continent/island, or if your neighbours are so uberfriendly that there is no chance they will backstab you.

However, the +50% never feels that much, as you are already running +200% from Philosophical and the national wonder. Plus some additional +25% from this and that.
I would increase it to +100% if the Grigori and Altar were not in the mod, and even with them I'm not so sure it would be too OP? Besides, the GP thing has always been one of my absolute favourites in the mod.

Fafnir's ideas are interesting. The Military Prod negative bonus could be equal to the GP positive bonus? Plus the 3x support cost. Increasing contrasts between civics is always good.

Oh, the AI.. Darn, it would be crushed by the change. It would not know how to use Pacifism correctly.
I will post this anyway, since I can't get back the time wasted in typing it.
 
iffi said:
Oh, the AI.. Darn, it would be crushed by the change. It would not know how to use Pacifism correctly.
I will post this anyway, since I can't get back the time wasted in typing it.
Click to expand...

I really don't see how the AI would be crusehd. It's pretty simple.

1. If you're at war, don;'t use it.
2. If not at war, how good are relations with your immediate neighbors.
3. If not at war, and all nearby civilisationz are pleased or friendly, then consider using it, if another civic doesn't take priority.


ANyways, the negative military production bonus sounds like a fine idea. That combined with the increased support cost, might make it weak enough to justify adding ALL of my initial suggestions.

The cottage growth rate thing sounds like an awesome idea, too. that would really make it useful in the early game, sacrificing defense for economic power.
 
I really don't see how the AI would be crusehd. It's pretty simple.
Click to expand...

With high to low option i switched to Kuriotates - they had 0% research, 2 city, lots of archers and -4 gold\turn... and pacifism (-1 gold per unit).

So now in my games I change -1 gold to -20% military unit production, and gp bonus to 75% (I don`t know how to change cottage growth rate :( ), and it works fine.

EDIT: I like smusebaer idea with -1 attack strength, but not with forrbiding anything to AI. It shoul be just changed.
 
In fall further the elohim had a-1 Attack if outside their cultural borders. That would fit much better than more upkeep. Perhaps a production malus for military units and a Happiness malus for stationed units....

But at the moment pacivism should be forbitten for AI.
 
WarKirby said:
I really don't see how the AI would be crusehd. It's pretty simple.

1. If you're at war, don;'t use it.
2. If not at war, how good are relations with your immediate neighbors.
3. If not at war, and all nearby civilisationz are pleased or friendly, then consider using it, if another civic doesn't take priority.


ANyways, the negative military production bonus sounds like a fine idea. That combined with the increased support cost, might make it weak enough to justify adding ALL of my initial suggestions.

The cottage growth rate thing sounds like an awesome idea, too. that would really make it useful in the early game, sacrificing defense for economic power.
Click to expand...

Good post/ideas.
 
I almost always change to it together with God King, then I get a Sage pop an acadamy. And if I have good enough economy, I get another sage or a Priest for holy city.

In multiplayer, when playing quick you can change 4 civics at once during 1 turn, so often switch it off when switching to tripple A.

Though it would both be fitting balance wise and realism wise to have it increase cottage growth.

Btw, Nationalism is almost useless early on, which is another reason I use Pacifism (which don't cost you anything as long as you have 0 unit costs, which is 3 units or less on emperor and above. So it only starts costing once you have 4 units).
Nationalism gives you no extra hammers if you don't already produce 10. It is a good counter to Apprenticeship however. And unless you are in a war and/or have Training Yards is practically useless.
Religion is also pretty useless early game, which makes Pacifism the most useful civic in that category the first 100 turns or so.
 
I do the same thing as Grey--God King+Pacifism, then swap out of it back to nationalism or religion (if I'm gunning for an early religion) together with Agrarianism and/or Apprenticeship.
It does help you get that first Acad up a few turns faster, and early on you don't really hit the military upkeep cap so fast.
 
Grey Fox said:
I almost always change to it together with God King, then I get a Sage pop an acadamy. And if I have good enough economy, I get another sage or a Priest for holy city.

In multiplayer, when playing quick you can change 4 civics at once during 1 turn, so often switch it off when switching to tripple A.

Though it would both be fitting balance wise and realism wise to have it increase cottage growth.

Btw, Nationalism is almost useless early on, which is another reason I use Pacifism (which don't cost you anything as long as you have 0 unit costs, which is 3 units or less on emperor and above. So it only starts costing once you have 4 units).
Nationalism gives you no extra hammers if you don't already produce 10. It is a good counter to Apprenticeship however. And unless you are in a war and/or have Training Yards is practically useless.
Religion is also pretty useless early game, which makes Pacifism the most useful civic in that category the first 100 turns or so.
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I can see nationalism being good for the first 100 turns if your planning a warrior rush. Other than that, unless you got a helluvalucky pop from a dungeon and got a priest discple early, religion is pointless. So if neither one of those options are your cup of tea, then pacifism is good. Unless you get backstabbed, which would probably mean you don't have a lot of units. Then your in trouble.
 
pacifism is highly useless and it cripples the AI. I really like the idea of having it give additional maintenance costs only for units OUTSIDE your borders. that way it stays kinda the same, but it lets you defend yourself without crippling your economy.
 
Unless you get backstabbed, which would probably mean you don't have a lot of units. Then your in trouble.
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In the early game, when you have not researched Trade yet, and, therefore, don't have the +4 "fair trade" modifier, it's rather hard to get someone to Friendly, and most FFH leaders backstab at Pleased, so you do need to keep a sizeable army.
 
I'm the same as some of the others here. I only ever use it for the situational early-game Mysticism+Sage/Priest pop and never look back. I saw elsewhere someone propose the idea of it giving a heavy military production penalty (50% or 100%) rather than +1 :gold: unit support cost, which I think would be fairer. At least then it'd be viable for use during the course of the game whilst still hindering your military ability.
 
Shouldnt pacifism be pacifism. How about not letting you declare war while you're using this civic?
 
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