Down on the Farm: Team Histographic #1

This thread will detail a concept that Spoonwood and I conceived together: a succession milk run! As bizarre as it sounds, we're going to give it a shot.

Settings:
Civilization: Maya
Difficulty: Deity
Size: Standard
Parameters: 60 percent archipelago, Wet, Warm, 5 billion, no barbarians
Least aggressive AIs (4): Persia, Babylon, Russia, Germany
All default rules

The goal is to win by achieving a Histographic victory that beats the current #1 score for Deity/Standard in the Civ3 Hall of Fame: 25358.

We believe this is a very achievable goal.

It is our hope that not only will we learn from each other and from the circumstances in this game, but others might gain something from reading about the many different aspects of a Histographic win: that is, the expansion, conquest, building, and milking phases of the game.

Turnsets: 10 turns each. Logs should be fairly detailed to demonstrate strategy and to allow for close coordination. All battles must be logged per fight.

Team:

Spoonwood
Elear

(not accepting other players)

Mapfinder at work. Will post potential starts soon.

You're sick. Both of you. Completely sick.

I'll be watching.

Thank you DWetzel.

I Subscribe.

I will follow this as I never bothered about such milking runs...

lurker's comment: I've never even played a milk run, but I'll follow this one. Good luck!

lurker's comment:
The concept is, um, unique.



(That is the polite word for it.)

Other words that come to mind to describe this endeavour are masochistic (since they will enjoy it) and sadistic (since we will enjoy their pain).

I've avoided this kind of game like the plague, taxes and in-laws.

So of course I will pay close attention.

For some of the HOF competetion, this sort of game is required. I would really like to see one done so I could better understand it.

( or :suicide:, I'm not sure which.)

But to write about such an ordeal? In detail? You're better a man/men than me.

CommandoBob said:

Other words that come to mind to describe this endeavour are masochistic (since they will enjoy it) and sadistic (since we will enjoy their pain).

Click to expand...

You said sadistic and masochistic. We'll also have slaves in *bondage*. And we'll lie close to the *domination* limit for a while. Not that that's my kind of thing, but it just came to mind.

lurker's comment: And there may even be some whipping involved...though probably not, as that has adverse effects on happiness.

Possible start locations:

Start #1 (Dom limit: 1851):



Start #2 (Dom limit: 1887):



Start #3 (Dom limit: 1895):



Start #4 (Dom limit: 1882):



Start #5 (Dom limit: 1841):



Start #6 (Dom limit: 1898):



Start #7 (Dom limit: 1922):

Although more starts can be generated, I think there may be something good enough in the collection above.

In my opinion:

#1 - Best, despite having one of the lower dom limits of the group
#2 - Good, but possibly too mountainous if there are any more mountains than shown
#3 - Hard to tell what else may be there, but seems like a start on the edge of the plains, so it may provide very fertile lands to the north. With only 4 AI, it is unlikely there are any AI above us.
#4 - Fine, but coastal
#5 - Gems However, same problems as #2
#6 - Probably the second best, not the best because it appears quite forested, which can provide certain problems in certain situations, but may also be a benefit, especially since we can take advantage as an Industrious civilization. Heavy forests around also decrease the odds of a nearby food bonus, though it is still possible. Nearly 1900 dom limit is a strong positive.
#7 - Enticing but probably too coastal, despite the high domination limit.

So, my preferred order: #1, #6, #5, #3, #2 #7, #4

I would say from testing that low 1800s is average for this sort of map, high 1800s is good, and 1900s is excellent. I'm not sure if 2000+ dom limits exist because I didn't get any.

Once we have something picked out, perhaps we can start figuring out our opening strategy and agreeing on the sequence.

-Elear

With #1 you almost want to move onto the gold hill and plant there. But, then the capital grows slower for its first ten turns. I almost feel inclined to say #7, because we've got another cow and we could definitely use another settler factory. It also has more than 20 tiles than of the other ones. Where on the map do each of these starts lie? #1 definitely *looks* like the best military production site for the capital, but we'll need to see what the first and second ring look like before we can really determine how strong of production we can get out of the map. I'd pick #6 over #1, because of the much higher domination limit. We could have spices in a forest, or game. I'd say #6, #7, #1 as my order and throw out the rest.

I definitely agree to eliminate 2,4,5, in which case I agree with your order, though I'm still suspicious about how coastal #7 might be, as well as how few BG there are around the cattle.

Leave #3 in the picture, though, because I think there's possibilities: we'd just have to find out what's in the northern fog.

I know #1 is a much lower domination limit, but the huge amount of BG around the cow is excellent. I wouldn't move onto the gold hill. An early 5 turn worker is important, I think, and since the hill is not adjacent to the cattle anymore, there's a problem.

If we could get an opening set of 10 turns on starts 1,3,6,7 it might be nice. Tell me if you'd like me to do that so we can see what's going on.

I'd think that we go for irrigating the cattle, mine BG, and build roads outwards in general (especially along rivers, nothing special there) and worker -> granary -> 4 turn settlers. Min research on Alphabet, keep luxury slider up for as many happy faces as possible through the opening turns.

No barbies, right? I like the idea of a second worker first. Although, it's most helpful when we have 4 bonus grasslands, so that we can get a 4 turn warrior-settler combo up and running. A second worker with plenty of forests works well. First road the cow for a little extra commerce and then irrigate it. You'll get 5 food on the first turn of growth after the worker this way (you knew this already, but you know, for the peanut gallery). Min research? I thought we talked about max research until Philosophy-Code of Laws freebie and then min research. Either way sounds fine with me. We have more happiness one way. We get to The Republic, and consequently faster growth and more commerce overall, another way.

It will be difficult to get Writing much faster than 50 turns anyway, might as well save gold. Once we have Writing, max research.

And yes, no barbarians.

The worker-first strategy has a really nice timing to it in terms of keeping ahead of your expansion; despite initial delay in getting a second city, by the fifth city, you come out ahead.

I just tested out all the starts. I'm thinking it's time for more Mapfinder. #1 and #6 were the best, the others you can forget about since they had various problems. #7 was the worst, maybe, with a weird peninsula with little land.

I can show you #1 and #6 if you want, both fine, but neither with a second cattle nearby, which I kind of wanted. Your call though. Both start locations are nice, otherwise.

So, once I get those uploaded for you to see, I'll be probably running Mapfinder anyway -- I figure I can continue doing the first 10 turns of any game that looks good until I have some really enticing starts. That way, I don't waste space posting about every POSSIBLE start. Let me know what you want.

-Elear

I don't think we'll get to Philosophy first unless we go max on Alphabet and Writing. Individually both techs can come in under 50 turns (especially if we have the cow on the river). 100 turns (50 for Alphabet and 50 for Writing) before a max run on Philosophy simply seems like too long to still get Philosophy first... at least with these tribes around. As an aside, I wonder... Babylon, and I think Germany, seems to prefer the Monarchy path and some other tribes do also (I don't think that holds for Persia and Russia). What are all the tribes that prefer that path? If you play against a bunch of tribes that prefer that path... does that make it more probable that you'll get The Republic slingshot or will their research behavior change?

If we spot a second cow or wheat or game nearby after founding, then I think it best to go worker-settler, and then either a third worker or a granary. Interestingly enough, I had run some games where I did the worker first strategy a bit ago, and thought that move something that many upper level players simply wouldn't do. It looks like we have playstyles that match Elear.

I think I'd rather have a start with another cattle or other food bonus such that when irrigated the city can have 5 food per turn. That way, our capital goes worker-settler-worker-granary-settlers (I think a third worker works out better than a granary right away) and the second city goes granary-settlers. With that plan, I think it best to go Alphabet-Writing-Philosophy all as max runs, Code of Laws as our free tech, then a nice min run (possibly even lone scientist if we have a good spot for that) on The Republic. We won't have all that many citizens to keep happy during this time period, so I think getting those techs in sooner works out better overall.

You don't seem to understand? Alphabet must be at 50 turns. You can't do it faster than 45 (as far as I can tell). Writing can probably be done in 30-some, which is fine if that's your point. But there is no such thing as Alphabet on max. Min Alphabet strategy isn't so much a strategy as a necessity.

You might be surprised at how slow the tech rate can be. On Huge/Sid, you can even find one or more civs without writing in 500 BC. First to Philosophy is doable.

I think I'd rather have a start with another cattle or other food bonus such that when irrigated the city can have 5 food per turn. That way, our capital goes worker-settler-worker-granary-settlers (I think a third worker works out better than a granary right away) and the second city goes granary-settlers.

Click to expand...

Although I generally play with the Granary ASAP, let's go with your way, I'm fine with that. Only one alteration. The second city (presumably using the second cattle) should build a worker first before the Granary. It seems like a waste not to. Four workers should be able to get roads up really fast. Two workers to improve the cities, two workers to work on roads.