your feedback for my thread begginers guide and basics for the new player

hegemonkhan

Warlord
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
Messages
201
PLEASE use this thread for your feedback, additions, comments, suggestions, criticisms, mistakes, corrections of this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=308987

please do NOT post yet in the link above's ( ^ ) thread as it isn't finished yet.
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your feedback: comments/posts, additions, suggestions, criticisms, disagreements, etc...

start posting your feedback ON this thread !!!
 
way too much to read just right now, but kudos for your effort! i'll read through it and see if there is anything i can amend.
 
it is all crammed together....i know many people don't like that and it hard to read, but it's already long, if i had made it more neat and done more organizing (spacing), it would come out even longer.

if u can stand/bare and read through it, it's quite jammed-packed with pretty good information at least for beginners or average players. though it's still in its very early stages. i do plan to continue and grow it. i plan to eventually make it really comprehensive.

though right now all that exists is the civs (with basic info and some decently general advanced strategy info too) and also different getting started "chain of action" suggestions for the first 50 or 100 turns. depending on what situation u find yourself in.

i'll also try to have links in it to good posts or threads or whatever too. i have one link to blackmanle's (hopefully this is the right person...my memory is bad) post about the sidar under my sidar civ section in my thread-post. i'll link more as i take the time to look and find other good posts-threads of other people.
 
I'll mainly comment on religious synergies since I feel that's one of the most important things in the game.

Luchuirp: They work amazingly well with Octopus Overlords. OO has its own melee line which is a small, redundant advantage for most civs, but the Luchuirp have the normal melee line completely replaced by golems. Normally, a luchuirp warrior can only upgrade to a slinger... pretty crappy, since warriors and slingers need totally different promotions to be effective. Adopt OO and you can drown those highly promoted warriors you get from early self defense, and later upgrade the drowns to stygians. I don't think golems can be crazed. If I'm right, the luchuirp can spam asylums and pay no heed to the normal drawback they have. OO turns the Luchuirp neutral, which means you can build dwarven druids, one of the game's best units if not the best.

Bannor: The problem is the Bannor don't really have anything that makes them synergize particularly well with any one religion, so for them it's a matter of "pick the default best". Personally I say that's Empyrean, but the best objective advice I could give would be "decide which religion you like the most overall and have the Bannor run it."

Malakim: Religion switching is the order of the day for these guys. I like to hit archery, lumbermill some forests while rushing FoL, then let them go ancient while rushing priesthood. Here's what you do then. Chase all the religious techs except for deception, starting with Honor. Get Deis Diei, and spam lightbringers out of the city that has it (bloom and lumbermill the hell out of it so it has hammers, if it didn't already.) When you have some lighytbringers, switch to a new religion and, upgrade like 4 of them to that religion's mid-tier priests. Repeat for all religions. Go full circle from Empyrean, and end up back there when all is said and done. Hit your worldspell, go for theology, get those vicars some experience, and upgrade them to the awesome luridus unit.

Amurites: See Bannor, add the fact that the relative crappiness of vicars doesn't mean much since all Amurite "priests" are really mages once you have Govannon.

Hippus: Raider + Empyrean is generally a great combo and it's especially true for Tasunke. Empyrean's strong unique units and hero getting commando is scary enough normally... throw horselord on the rathas, and, uh, OUCH. Shooting out 6 squares ahead, blinding an enemy stack, and retreating back to a stack is fun.

Lanun (Hannah): Raider, empyrean, etc.

Sidar: See Bannor/Amurites. Worth noting because you linked to a post which contains a strategy where you use CoE's diplo bonuses to keep you safe while going for a culture win, but I don't see how that's an especially good fit for the sidar. Sidar bards are barely better than anyone else's, at least if they're optimized for cultural victory. 11 culture vs. 10, whoohoo. If this is one of the best strategies for the Sidar, well, that says a lot about the overall worth of the civ, none of it good.

Doviello (Mahala): Raider, Empyrean, etc.

Sheaim: This sounds so obvious to an intermediate or experienced player as to not be worth mentioning, but don't underestimate a noob's ability to miss key synergies. Sheaim should adopt Ashen Veil because it ratchets up the armageddon counter, which powers 2 of the Sheaim's powerful unique features (planar gates and the world spell.)

Svartalfar: Raider, Empyrean etc. Only they want to make like the malakim and go FoL first and early, so that they can get ancient forests to exploit their forest building strategy with.
 
good suggestions,

though i just realized something, i can't add everyone's ideas to the guide...that be way too much. so i'll jsut leave the stuff here and people can look at your ideas on this thread. of course if there's some REALLY key elements/suggestions mentioned here i'll add them, but it's my discretion, so don't get offended, if i add anything at all, it'll only be what *i feel* most important, as the beginners guide and basics thread is already long enough and gonna get longer as i add more and more to it.

(i WILL add that the empyream is also a good religion for the hippus and i'll mention how ANY religion is good for luchiurp as any/all of the religions will grant a line of military units that the luchuirp naturally don't have...right now:D)
 
As a preface, you've obviously spent a lot of thought and effort on your posts, but I find them virtually unreadable. Here's one cranky old man's friendly advice:

1. "You", not "u". If you're going to spell out every other word, this just looks like an affectation.
2. Sentences start with capital letters.
3. Break up your paragraphs. When I see a block of 20 lines of text, my eyes glaze over. Use more paragraphs, put some of your points in bullets, add pictures: something other than massive chunks of text. This is probably made worse by the lack of capital letters.
4. Spell check. People will form their opinion of you based on your writing style.
 
i hate grammer n speling their so hard...
 
As a preface, you've obviously spent a lot of thought and effort on your posts, but I find them virtually unreadable. Here's one cranky old man's friendly advice:

1. "You", not "u". If you're going to spell out every other word, this just looks like an affectation.
2. Sentences start with capital letters.
3. Break up your paragraphs. When I see a block of 20 lines of text, my eyes glaze over. Use more paragraphs, put some of your points in bullets, add pictures: something other than massive chunks of text. This is probably made worse by the lack of capital letters.
4. Spell check. People will form their opinion of you based on your writing style.

I will second this. I stop reading his posts when I come upon the first "u". it is as simple as copy/pasting your post into a word document beforehand and taking the minute amount of exertion required to press two additional keys.
 
Admitting to being a grammar nazi is worse than admitting to being a real nazi.
 
I am no grammar Nazi, but you might have to tidy up your sentences and formatting. Nobody asks for proper sentences, but your article looks like one big glob of primordial goo. Reading the article, I feel like a tar demon has just splashed all over and then swallowed me.

But I see potential in your article. Once the quark soup cools down, I would be happy to contribute some of my ideas as well. Every civ, map type and religion is different, but there are also counter-intuitive but common ideas that a beginner should know.
 
Agree that's it's difficult to read. Also, try to organize your list of "new stuff in FfH" according to importance, not according to how they pop into your head. for example:

"20. promotions in FFH2 are much much much more powerful."

This should be around number 1 or 2, because this issue fundamentally changes the game from BtS from turn one. Think of all its implications:
1) promote immediately instead of saving promotions for healing
2) quality > quantity (a CV shock warrior can slaughter four green warriors)
3) promotions > tech (A CV shock warrior can slaughter a CII axeman)
4) protect your well-promoted units like your children, because you don't lose xp by upgrading them, and so your starting warrior can be your army-slaughtering immortal at the end of the game.

And so on. The point is, focus on the important stuff first, and then fill in details like Acheron appearing and recon units being stronger.


EDIT: Also, not to keep harping on the spelling, but please PLEASE be sure to spell the names of FfH characters correctly. On a quick pass-through I noticed misspellings of Tasunke, Sabathiel, Orthus, and Barnaxus ("barimus"??). It doesn't actually affect the quality of the article, but it makes it more difficult to see you as an "authority" if you don't know the characters' names.
 
Some quick notes...

I think by 'whats a good civ to start with?' he meant, "what is a good civ for a new player to use?"

You can create a bunch of empty posts (you see them frequently as 'reserved' posts) and edit them later. There is no time limit on editing old posts here, at least not one I've ever hit. I would suggest have the first post set up as a table of contents with links to other specific posts in your thread and other related threads. It will be much easier for new players than a 'wall of text' which can be intimidating, especially considering the scope of FfH itself.

For the content, I would suggest avoiding tricks, strategies, synergies, etc. Instead you should focus on getting a new player to unders the basic concepts of the game without burrying them under the details of effective strategies. It should be short & sweet so they can read it, soak up the information and then jump in the game and have an idea of what the different buttons and other shinny things do. For many players discovering the strategies and synergies of a game is what is most fun and those topics are covered in detail in many other threads.
 
i DID know he meant as a new player and i answered-responded as such-correctly.

ya i'm slowly expanding out the information into more posts. i'm slowly organizing it better, and i will eventually get a table of contents too :D

the thread will eventually ahve as much as i can: FFH2 new stuff, FFH2 basics, beginner stuff, intermediate stuff, advanced stuff, pro-expert-veteran stuff, etc.. :D

ya i'll organize the FFH2 new stuff section better...i was just putting down the stuff i could think of of the top of my head. it was a simple thing to add so i did so. i jsut want to get stuff down and than i'll slowly organize it better.

TY, for the correct spelling of Barnaxus, i went and fixed it :D

TY, for the correct spelling of Tasunke, i went and fixed it :D

TY, for the correct spelling of Sabathiel, i went and fixed it :D

TY, for the correct spelling of Orthus, i went and fixed it :D
 
I'd say go for basic and begginers. I doubt there will be much agreement about advanced and expert stuff. And lots of stuff is also covered in the FFH manual.
 
agreement isn't a problem, there's many ways to play FFH2, and the person can choose which way he likes or thinks is best and use that.

right now, this thread only has very general strategy/playstyle/tactics for the different civs, crammed and "hidden" in the huge civ block chunks which most people are too lazy to read through and quickly complain about. i think of these as basic to immediatary information, but it's certainly not expert-pro-veteran information (except the link to blackmantle's discussion of how to play the sidar).

i'm still just in the process of SLOWLY adding in more and more stuff and doing "some" organizing at the same time.

this project has a long long long long way to go. i did originally mean for it to be jsut a "beginners guide and basics for a new player" as i had titled it, but as i did it, i'm like why not make it as comprehension and full and complete as i can. and so that's its new direction and mission....quite an undertaking....it'll take a long long long time to do and i'm not under any rush...so it's gonna be really slow.....

i do know about the many other sources of infromation, xienwolf? (hopefully i got the right person and somewhat spelled his name right) 's (and grey fox i think made and older manual too) manual is incredibly well done!, but this is a strategy forum on the website, and there wasn't anything like this yet, and thought it could/would be really helpful for new and even older players....(eventually)...
 
I just started playing FFH2, so I'm kind of your target audience. Most of what I have to say has been said, to some extent.

1. Be readable. Capitalization helps immensely. I know it's not always in vogue. Also, try to avoid walls of text. Finally, separate out facts, opinions, and strategies.

Here's an example.

Original

1. elohim. they are the "peace keeper" civ. mostly a builder civ and some warmonger civ. same "strength" for all 3 stages (early, mid, late) of a game but the ability to lower the armegedon counter is very helpful for the mid and late game. they can build monks which have a bonus against demon units and get 2 moves and has medic 1 promotion (i think). also able to counter-lower the armegedon counter. no particuluar religion goes well for them, but the veil religion shouldn't be used with them because it conflicts with them in terms of the armegedon counter and some other things. they have abilities to make peace during war.

Edited version:

1 - Elohim, the "peacekeeper" civ. They can lower the Armageddon Counter, force other civs to make peace, and build monks, who start with medic and gain bonuses against demons.

Generally, the Elohim are strong throughout the entire game. They don't get any particular benefit from any religion, though the Veil religion has drawbacks. Usually balanced between building infrastructure and military.

2. Guide your reader through the game as a game. When he or she clicks on Fall From Heaven 2, and starts to play a game, what should they look for and do? Is the Play Now button good? When playing a custom game, are there dangers to look out for? How many civs fit on a standard Erebus map?

Use hyperlinks if you need to. Fill up the first page with different threads.

3. Lists are generally good and readable, if you make them readable. This isn't, right now. Glancing at it, it's difficult to read and seems excessively detailed. You can't play the game for us.

1. if you're playing a competitive game, next to other civ(s), on higher difficulties, having raging barbs option on, playing against 1 or many good human player(s), and/or having agressive ai option on, THAN u probably want/need to build warriorS and/or palisade building.

2. if not in #1 's situation(s), have more and/or useful land tiles/resources than water tiles/resources, and able to build land improvments or be able to before u build your worker, THAN build a worker first.

3A. if not in #1 's situation(s), have more and/or useful water tiles/resources than land tiles/resources, and able to build water improvments, THAN build a work boat first.

3B. if not in #1 's situation(s), have more and/or useful water tiles/resources than land tiles/resources, but can't build work boats (no fishing tech), THAN build a quick building, warrior/scout, or worker.

4. tech wise, u wanna get what u need (if u don't already have the tech) for #1-3 's situation(s).

4A. for #1, u wanna get either military techs (for better military units) and/or mysticism (for god king civic and elder council for beakers and faster techs and scientist specialist for more beakers, faster tech, and great sages for academy first than used/made into a super specialst in city for more beakers and faster techs). mysticism usually should be gotten first before going for military techs (unless u must/need to get military techs/2nd tier military unit ASAP), if your going to get both of them.

4B. for #2, u wanna get agriculture (for farms)

4C1. for #3B, u wanna get fishing tech so u can than build the fishing boats and get the water resources.

4C2. for #3A, u wanna than get sailing tech (for whale resource improvement, harbor buildings and ocean trade/trade routes).

5. after #4, for tech, u wanna get mining (for mines and/or towards axemen) or calender (for plantation or towards festical tech and its market building for +3 gold) or animal husbandry (for pastures and/or towards horseback riding) or sailing (for whale improvement and/or better naval units or buildings/wonders) or hunting (for camps or hunters) or the tech (forgot which tech) that gives u library building or whatever tech that gives u buildings or civics that grant u more specialists or whatever tech u need/want.

6. for #1 situations and after #4A, for tech, u wanna get the tech that gives u the library building for another sage specialist OR u wanna get the tech(s) that gives u building(s) that give u more priest specialists.

7A. for NON-#1 situations and after #3, u wanna use your farms-food to REX (rapid expansion) (spam workers/settlers until u can't or need/want to switch focus on other things)

7B. for #1 situations and after #4A, u wanna build the library building soon as u get the tech for it OR build the pagan temple and other buildings (when u get the tech for them) that give u more priest specialists.
 
who are the targets? complete FF2 noobs or already- tried -something -here -and there -beginners?

I personally think that the best idea is to compose some kind of "warning" guide, to point out some very specific issues like how death mana affects summoned wraiths or why AoL builder shouldn't switch to evil religion and so on.
 
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