Should Vasal States exist after Emancipation?

zarakand

Prince
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Nov 4, 2005
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I've always thought this was a flaw in the game. If my civilization adopts Emancipation, I should automatically suffer unhappiness from having Vassals in my cities and revolution chances in my conquered cities should increase by a certain % maybe 10-15% of course troop levels can affect that %.


What do you guys thinks? Is there a mod that addresses this?
 
That would really mess up the the whole Vassal system since there's no way to get rid of them, and there's no way to avoid Emancipation either. Unless you're willing to put up with the unhappiness. Why bother taking on a vassal then if it's just going to screw you in the end? I don't see it as a flaw at all, and there's no way I'd want to play the game the way you're suggesting.
 
The way I see it, Emancipation refers to the personal freedom of *individuals*, rather than entire civilizations.
 
I'd like to see there be some way to get rid of a vassal, other than provoking an AI to attack you both and letting the vassal get hammered. Probably it shouldn't be too easy, but it always kind of bugged me that the master civilization has no way of terminating the vassal relationship.
 
Yeah vassal states are colonies and those exist long after emancipation of individual people. They are different concepts.
 
With the exception of not being able to easily free vassal civs, I don't think the vassal system is unrealistic. I don't view the vassal relation in CivIV as being exactly like tributary status like say Muscovy under Mongol yoke.

The Warsaw Pact would be a good example of Modern era vassal states, but it's debatable which Labor civic Russia was running during the USSR/Cold War period.

That said, in the game, civs with weaker armies often voluntarily offer to become vassals of more militarily powerful civs with whom they have very good relations. I imagine if in real life, if there small countries near perceived aggressor states who had total protection from a military superpower (and they had very good relations) that would fit the vassal state model -- and I doubt it would (by itself) necessarily cause protests/turmoil in the bigger civ.

Two possible examples that might be argued are U.S.-Israel & U.S.-South Korea. I wouldn't consider Israel a vassal of the U.S., mainly because Israel has been involved in a few wars without the U.S. declaring war (which comes with the vassal relation). Then again, it could be argued that a Civ IV declaration of war isn't mutually implied by a declaration of war by Congress.

Whereas the Rep of Korea hasn't been in any wars since becoming very friendly with the U.S. during the Korean War. While one could say there's no indication the S. Korea isn't an American vassal, others could say there's no indication S. Korea is a vassal state: they just have open borders and defensive pact.

Other contemporary situations could be considered, but I have to go feed my dog.
 
Or maybe. vassal states should be considered as republics with certain level of autonomy after emancipation is adopted.
 
I agree there should be other ways to terminate a vassal agreement.

What really bugs me, is that a vassal can hit you with spies, and you can do nothing about it.

Spying should be valid grounds for termination.
 
No they can't. Vassal states can not conduct espionage missions against their master.

Then my vassal must have terminated the agreement without my knoweldge...
 
Or the spies are being sent by someone else.

Germany was my vassal.

Throughout the game, I occasionally got messages saying "a German spy was stumbled upon while operating near Rome".
 
Germany was my vassal.

Throughout the game, I occasionally got messages saying "a German spy was stumbled upon while operating near Rome".

That's some sort of bug then because they're not supposed to be able to spy on you. Or perhaps it was just passing through your territory in order to spy on some other neighbour? I have had games where I've vassalized the entire continent and once that happened I never had a single spy report.
 
Germany was my vassal.

Throughout the game, I occasionally got messages saying "a German spy was stumbled upon while operating near Rome".

They can't conduct missions against you, but they can still send Spies to snoop around inside your borders. Spies can be discovered if they're stationary, whether they attempt to perform a mission or not.
 
I had a great spy discovered like that. I was using him to stay stationary and observe enemy troop movement (noob move), and then BAM!
A German Great SPy has been stumbled upon near Paris!
That Sucked. I had thought Great Spies could not be stumbled upon.
 
I had a great spy discovered like that. I was using him to stay stationary and observe enemy troop movement (noob move), and then BAM!
A German Great SPy has been stumbled upon near Paris!
That Sucked. I had thought Great Spies could not be stumbled upon.

what a waste? why were you suing great for spying anyway? I used great spies for golden ages.
 
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