So a while back, I had an idea for reworking culture as it appears in the Civ games. Unfortunately I buried this idea in the ridiculously unwieldy Civ 5 thread. I was thinking about the idea again and wanted to hear some opinions on it, so I decided to give it it's own thread.
Basically, in my opinion, culture as it currently appears in Civ IV is a bit boring, to put it mildly. More or less it exists to push borders around a bit and, from a game play perspective, not a whole lot else. Oh there's a culture victory, but I've never been a big fan of it. Building a space ship and going to Alpha Centauri? Sure, that's a reasonable victory. World Conquest? Obviously if everyone else is dead you win. Domination? Hey if you already own most of the world, the outcome is sort of a foregone conclusion right? Diplomatic? Yeah, if everyone agrees you win then, hey, you win. Culture? Er...three of your cities passed an arbitrary threshold for number of musical notes...?
So here is what I am suggesting.
Culture still does the same thing it does now in regards to borders and city flipping, but we punch it up a little.
Consider for a moment the following: literature, the heroic epic, the Sistine Chapel, and drama. The heroic epic and the Sistine Chapel, currently, are wonders (one small one large) that you have to build. With hammers. You can actually pump out the heroic epic faster if you have some mines in a city. Coal or copper are also good. Literature and drama are technologies. They're obtained with beakers, and you can get them quicker if you make some scientists. No matter how many artists you're running the Sistine Chapel and literature will not come to you any faster.
Does this make sense to anyone?
So how about this: we institute what, for lack of a better term, I will be calling a culture tech tree.
The culture tech tree will be a tree that consists of cultural advancements, and progressing through the tree will depend on the total culture your nation produces, much like the current one depends on beaker production. It will be made up of techs and wonders from the current game that we move there (such as literature, drama, military tradition, the Sistine Chapel and all poem related wonders) as well as some new culture techs we devise. Some wonders, like the heroic epic, will become culture techs themselves while others, like say Hollywood or Bachs cathedral, will still have to be built in cities, but will have a culture tech (like music) as a prerequisite. It will exist separate from the science tech tree but will be tied to it. For example, before you can research literature in the culture tech tree, you must first research writing in the science tech tree. (Note, not all wonders will be culture related. Hoover dam for example probably wouldn't get built any faster if the Roosevelt administration sponsored some painters.)
The tree will be largely optional. Although the culture tech tree will depend on the science one, the reverse will not be true. As a result you can, if you so choose, run a barbarian culture which laughs at the arts but still makes a mean tank. You can win the game without ever touching the thing if you so choose.
BUT it will give some nice bonuses to those civs who do choose to pursue it. Wonders, both large and small, will be tied to it. Some national bonuses (for example to happiness) could come from it. Resources like Broadway hits will come from it. Going down the culture tree could give you culture techs that make flipping cities easier.
Two points that I think will make this idea work even better:
1. Remove the culture slider. The reasons for this are two fold. First of all I don't think players should have to feel that culture is competing with science directly. I can imagine players saying "the culture tree sucks, you have to gimp your science to use it." I don't want that. Second of all if you have a culture slider the culture tree sort of just becomes "science b". The way in which you move up the tree is basically just the same as the science tree. Instead, by forcing the player to get his culture from buildings, wonders, and artist specialists, these issues are avoided. Science and culture are no longer directly competing, and the way in which you move up the two trees is fundamentally different.
2. Don't allow the trading of culture techs. Culture is a property of a nation. It's not really something that's traded or bought. It can diffuse on it's own, but it doesn't make sense to trade the assembly line for music.
Finally let's look at reworking the current culture win condition.
Currently I have two ideas kicking around in my head:
1. Make a culture equivalent of the spaceship. Perhaps when you get far enough in the culture tech tree you get the opportunity to either research "cultural icons" (think Mickey Mouse for example) on the cultural tech tree or you unlock great cultural buildings. Completing all the icons or building all the buildings gives you a cultural dominance win. Perhaps you mix the ideas, you have icons AND buildings and you have to complete both.
2. Introduce language to the game. This one is a bit less straightforward, and perhaps more problematic, but potentially more interesting. Language diffuses in much the same way religion works now, but without missionaries to spread it. It would move faster along trade routes and open boarders, and it would also move faster depending on the total culture of the civ spreading it. Once your language spreads to a large enough portion of the world, you win.
So anyway, that's what I've got bouncing around in my head. What do people think? Good ideas? Bad ideas? Take it? Leave it?
Basically, in my opinion, culture as it currently appears in Civ IV is a bit boring, to put it mildly. More or less it exists to push borders around a bit and, from a game play perspective, not a whole lot else. Oh there's a culture victory, but I've never been a big fan of it. Building a space ship and going to Alpha Centauri? Sure, that's a reasonable victory. World Conquest? Obviously if everyone else is dead you win. Domination? Hey if you already own most of the world, the outcome is sort of a foregone conclusion right? Diplomatic? Yeah, if everyone agrees you win then, hey, you win. Culture? Er...three of your cities passed an arbitrary threshold for number of musical notes...?
So here is what I am suggesting.
Culture still does the same thing it does now in regards to borders and city flipping, but we punch it up a little.
Consider for a moment the following: literature, the heroic epic, the Sistine Chapel, and drama. The heroic epic and the Sistine Chapel, currently, are wonders (one small one large) that you have to build. With hammers. You can actually pump out the heroic epic faster if you have some mines in a city. Coal or copper are also good. Literature and drama are technologies. They're obtained with beakers, and you can get them quicker if you make some scientists. No matter how many artists you're running the Sistine Chapel and literature will not come to you any faster.
Does this make sense to anyone?
So how about this: we institute what, for lack of a better term, I will be calling a culture tech tree.
The culture tech tree will be a tree that consists of cultural advancements, and progressing through the tree will depend on the total culture your nation produces, much like the current one depends on beaker production. It will be made up of techs and wonders from the current game that we move there (such as literature, drama, military tradition, the Sistine Chapel and all poem related wonders) as well as some new culture techs we devise. Some wonders, like the heroic epic, will become culture techs themselves while others, like say Hollywood or Bachs cathedral, will still have to be built in cities, but will have a culture tech (like music) as a prerequisite. It will exist separate from the science tech tree but will be tied to it. For example, before you can research literature in the culture tech tree, you must first research writing in the science tech tree. (Note, not all wonders will be culture related. Hoover dam for example probably wouldn't get built any faster if the Roosevelt administration sponsored some painters.)
The tree will be largely optional. Although the culture tech tree will depend on the science one, the reverse will not be true. As a result you can, if you so choose, run a barbarian culture which laughs at the arts but still makes a mean tank. You can win the game without ever touching the thing if you so choose.
BUT it will give some nice bonuses to those civs who do choose to pursue it. Wonders, both large and small, will be tied to it. Some national bonuses (for example to happiness) could come from it. Resources like Broadway hits will come from it. Going down the culture tree could give you culture techs that make flipping cities easier.
Two points that I think will make this idea work even better:
1. Remove the culture slider. The reasons for this are two fold. First of all I don't think players should have to feel that culture is competing with science directly. I can imagine players saying "the culture tree sucks, you have to gimp your science to use it." I don't want that. Second of all if you have a culture slider the culture tree sort of just becomes "science b". The way in which you move up the tree is basically just the same as the science tree. Instead, by forcing the player to get his culture from buildings, wonders, and artist specialists, these issues are avoided. Science and culture are no longer directly competing, and the way in which you move up the two trees is fundamentally different.
2. Don't allow the trading of culture techs. Culture is a property of a nation. It's not really something that's traded or bought. It can diffuse on it's own, but it doesn't make sense to trade the assembly line for music.
Finally let's look at reworking the current culture win condition.
Currently I have two ideas kicking around in my head:
1. Make a culture equivalent of the spaceship. Perhaps when you get far enough in the culture tech tree you get the opportunity to either research "cultural icons" (think Mickey Mouse for example) on the cultural tech tree or you unlock great cultural buildings. Completing all the icons or building all the buildings gives you a cultural dominance win. Perhaps you mix the ideas, you have icons AND buildings and you have to complete both.
2. Introduce language to the game. This one is a bit less straightforward, and perhaps more problematic, but potentially more interesting. Language diffuses in much the same way religion works now, but without missionaries to spread it. It would move faster along trade routes and open boarders, and it would also move faster depending on the total culture of the civ spreading it. Once your language spreads to a large enough portion of the world, you win.
So anyway, that's what I've got bouncing around in my head. What do people think? Good ideas? Bad ideas? Take it? Leave it?
Perhaps my perspective is severely limited - but many of the works of art/music/architecture that I am aware of come from either a) inspired from Judeo-Christian religion or b) were paid for by the roman catholic church.
