Unit strength overhaul

One thing that I haven't been entirely happy about in RoM v2.5 and earlier versions has been unit strength and costs. Unit costs has been on top of the complain list as well for pretty long time now so in RoM 2.6 I have taken steps to correct them. After changing the costs I decided to make excel sheets out of the unit costs, strengths and bonuses to help me calculate better and much faster useful values for them. Those excel sheets are now included in RoM 2.6beta patch.

Now in RoM 2.6beta there are new unit strengths and new costs plus some new modifiers for mounted and wheeled units. I'm not yet sure if those strength changes will stay in for the 2.6 patch as there hasn't been much testing yet but new unit strengths will be certainly included in v2.7 patch cycle.

Currently in RoM 2.5 the unit strengths go from 1 to 70 and with these new changes they will go from 1 to 360 and usually the next upgrade in unit's upgrade path is now 30-45% better than the previous one. In v2.5 the units' upgrade strength increase is much less in later eras. So the new units will now always be superior to older unit types even if older unit has couple promotions.

Another thing is that with new values you will now always get same amount of strength with 1 , no matter what the era is - in v2.5 you will get less and less strength with 1 as your game progresses which for me didn't seem to be right.

There's still much left to do with unit bonuses and overal balance. So if you got anything to say about these changes, just post some feedback here. I know I can't think of every possible situation

Newest unit excel sheets available now as attachment in this post

I haven't had a chance to install 2.6beta yet, but reading through the 2.6 discussion I noticed Kalimakus' concern about Spearmen being short lived in their usefulness. So I was wondering if you could make the Spearman (str3 - armed with a sharpened stick) upgrade strength based on what types of resources are available, similar to the faster build bonuses that you had in 2.5.

This system is in place in FfH2, though it applies to most melee units and some archery units.

Hroth

The solution would to add an pre spearman with 3 str since they come so early and no resource req with the exeption that you would make wood an minor resource or something? no speaman untill you got a road to a nearby forest? nothing big bonus just the little wood on the side
But as said just make an early spearman with 3 str and then fill the gap between him and pikeman with another unit?

Hroth said:

I haven't had a chance to install 2.6beta yet, but reading through the 2.6 discussion I noticed Kalimakus' concern about Spearmen being short lived in their usefulness. So I was wondering if you could make the Spearman (str3 - armed with a sharpened stick) upgrade strength based on what types of resources are available, similar to the faster build bonuses that you had in 2.5.

This system is in place in FfH2, though it applies to most melee units and some archery units.

Hroth

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So for some 4 str is too much and for some str 3 is too small Now spearman has 100% bonus against mounted units and it's their task to counter mounted - thus str is 6 then which should be enough to counter chariots and horseman and possibly Mounted infantry if you plan your promotions well. Horse Archer actually in real life didn't ram into melee troops, they picked them out with their bows from distance so against them spearman has some trouble. By the time you get to use knights and other medieval mounted units, you should also have access to Pikeman.

Ironmann said:

The solution would to add an pre spearman with 3 str since they come so early and no resource req with the exeption that you would make wood an minor resource or something? no speaman untill you got a road to a nearby forest? nothing big bonus just the little wood on the side
But as said just make an early spearman with 3 str and then fill the gap between him and pikeman with another unit?

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I'll think about it when I'm making v2.7 However in this thread we should discuss only the existing unit classes and about what bonuses they should have.

Strength 3 with a 100% bonus against mounted units sounds right to me.

However I agree that really this bonus should only apply when defending since the primary advantage of spears is when forming static walls. Don't think the game supports this though.

There also may need to be a new archer unit in between Archer and Longbowmen/Crossbowmen, you making a jump from 3 to 8/9. Also you have the whole classical era to fend off axemen, lightswordmen, etc (str 5/6 etc) with the lowly stone stipped archer. An inermediary str 4 or 5 archer should be sufficient, perhaps requiring bronze working and/or military training as tech req. Note that if this is done, you might want to re-evaluate the babylonian unique unit, which is a Str 4 archer.

Munger said:

Strength 3 with a 100% bonus against mounted units sounds right to me.

However I agree that really this bonus should only apply when defending since the primary advantage of spears is when forming static walls. Don't think the game supports this though.

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Actually the game supports it. You can assign bonus modifier against specific units in case of attack or defense separately. This was new in BTS. One Mod that uses only defensive bonus for spearmen against cavalry is HoTK. I find this quite realistic as most units can't simply attack cavalry successfully. (You can't charge into troops that are faster than yourself). The only effective non-cavalry units against them in semi-attack manner are Crossbows (actually used to counter armored knights as their arrows had more piercing power than other archers), and siege weapons. Both won't kill entire battalions of cavalry but can damage them heavily. This leads me to suggest that Cavalry bonus against siege weapons should be in attack only.

zappara said:

So for some 4 str is too much and for some str 3 is too small Now spearman has 100% bonus against mounted units and it's their task to counter mounted - thus str is 6 then which should be enough to counter chariots and horseman and possibly Mounted infantry if you plan your promotions well. Horse Archer actually in real life didn't ram into melee troops, they picked them out with their bows from distance so against them spearman has some trouble. By the time you get to use knights and other medieval mounted units, you should also have access to Pikeman..

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I wasn't saying that 3 is not strong enough, I was merely suggesting, as an interim step between spearmen and pikemen, that resources obsidian/copper/iron could give a str benefit to the unit.

As opposed to others suggesting a new interim unit.

Kalimakhus said:

Actually the game supports it. You can assign bonus modifier against specific units in case of attack or defense separately. This was new in BTS. One Mod that uses only defensive bonus for spearmen against cavalry is HoTK. I find this quite realistic as most units can't simply attack cavalry successfully. (You can't charge into troops that are faster than yourself). The only effective non-cavalry units against them in semi-attack manner are Crossbows (actually used to counter armored knights as their arrows had more piercing power than other archers), and siege weapons. Both won't kill entire battalions of cavalry but can damage them heavily. This leads me to suggest that Cavalry bonus against siege weapons should be in attack only.

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I totaly agree.

Also suggest a reevaluation of the early archery unit system:
First... Mali skirmishers. I think they are a bit too powerful. If u guys are looking for an intermediate unit between the archer and the longbow i vote for a skirmisher.

How about archer will be reduced to str 2 but +50% on defense. Also change the name maybe to early archer or wood archer. And a str 3/4 archer unit named a "skirmisher" who also gets some attack bonuses, against mele unit maybe? Romans and vikings used to throw javelins before charging... so why not?

what do you guys think?

Hmm, Peasant Archers -> Archer -> Longbowman?
Town Militia -> Spearman -> Pikeman?

I may have played too much Total War games

One other thing about early units is that Horse Archers should have use for much later so perhaps they should get upgrade as well - Mounted Archers? For example I'm pretty sure Mongols used horse archers and their empire was huge around 13th century...

zappara said:

Hmm, Peasant Archers -> Archer -> Longbowman?
Town Militia -> Spearman -> Pikeman?

I may have played too much Total War games

One other thing about early units is that Horse Archers should have use for much later so perhaps they should get upgrade as well - Mounted Archers? For example I'm pretty sure Mongols used horse archers and their empire was huge around 13th century...

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Was thinking the same... maybe also adding recourse based promotion like other mods. Wont require changing allot just link resources with buildings
Barracks\Forge + Iron\Bronz = A promotion named "Iron shield\Sword" that gives + X% att\def\strenght.
We either link it to the building that makes the weapon or to the building that distributes the weapon.
Get the idea...
...needs to be balanced and all... but what do you think about the main idea?

Also, im a big fan of the TW series myself, and im quite disappointed about the new empire game. Maybe ,Zap, u can also start modding that one?

zappara said:

Hmm, Peasant Archers -> Archer -> Longbowman?
Town Militia -> Spearman -> Pikeman?

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Yep, sounds spot on to me!

Ogaburan said:

Also, im a big fan of the TW series myself, and im quite disappointed about the new empire game. Maybe ,Zap, u can also start modding that one?

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I'm also a big fan of TW, although it doesn't reach to RoM levels of excellence.

Empire arrived through the post yesterday but I'm not bothering installing it yet as I hear it is riddled with bugs.

I am also of the opinion that spearmen and pikemen should get cavalry bonus only on defense. These kinds of units cannot attack moving horsemen, but they coudl defend against them. Perhaps the defense bonus could be less against horse archers.

rabber said:

I am also of the opinion that spearmen and pikemen should get cavalry bonus only on defense. These kinds of units cannot attack moving horsemen, but they coudl defend against them. Perhaps the defense bonus could be less against horse archers.

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Why it can't attack moving horsemen? I can think of situations in battlefield where the horsemen have little of choice where to move (due to terrain or enemy troops' position or by commander's miscalculation) and thus they must face the attack of spearmen. Spearman first most likely will kill the horses so horsemen become fast unmounted infantry and at that point it'll be sword vs. spear fight ie. with civ terms melee vs. melee fight...

Also we have to remember that there are promotions that give various bonuses for Mounted units - like higher withdrawal rate and Formation promotions. On the other hand highly trained melee units should be able to take out mounted units easier (if those promotions are selected).

Next something about other units:

Should Axeman have bonus when attacking to Forest or Jungle? Axes do cut trees you know

Don't know about Axemen... as I have had ivory in 3 of 3 games now I go directly for elephants and boy are those powerful. In my current game a have a stack of doom with about 15 Elephant Riders (now most are veterans with many promotions) that I crushed all other 3 civilization on my island with. Sure I lose some every now and then but they are usually replaced quickly.

Ideally I would like to see some restriction to the number of elephant units you have in regards to how much ivory you have. Kinda like you can only own 3 elephant units for every ivory you own. But I guess that is not possible so if they are just nerfed from 8 strenght to perhaps 7? strenght would be kind of reasonable... or?

Also another thing that doesn't directly relate to unit strenght. But I like how you get bonuses to build spearmen for some resources. I think most units should be like that. If you look at iron for example I would say that the iron resources in Civ 4 is heavily concentrated iron deposits irl but iron should exist on many more places. So instead of having it as a perequisite for building for example light swordsman perhaps it should instead adding a large bonus?

Here is an example:
Light Swordsman cost 500 resources builds 500% faster with iron.

I don't recommend going below 3 Str for the basic archer. I don't know if I care either way about spearman/mounted having restricted bonuses on attack only or defense only, I'd have to test it out a bit to see. I agree that the Elephant Riders & War Elephants are a bit too powerful as well. if we can't use fishing boats to scout, maybe a new 1 STR scouting raft, which can transport 1 scouts/spies/Great People etc, enabled at Fishing, can only defend, restricted to coastal only of course.

One thing that I do want to point out regarding your 'same cost in hammers per point of str' statement at the beginning of this thread. That might work, except for the consideration of unit speeds and specials. If you're trying to make a cost system that keeps costs balanced for units, you need to assign a point equivalent for things such as +1 base speed, +(whatever)% against given units, and things like that. You might even need to look at whether given unit categories are inherently more powerful due to lack of counterunits, and possibly assign a cost modifier there as well.

I don't have answers for what these costs should be. I just want to point out that this will need to be considered to make sure that, for example, fast units don't wind up being spammed over slow units just because people are getting 'more for less' that way.

Saarud said:

Ideally I would like to see some restriction to the number of elephant units you have in regards to how much ivory you have. Kinda like you can only own 3 elephant units for every ivory you own. But I guess that is not possible so if they are just nerfed from 8 strenght to perhaps 7? strenght would be kind of reasonable... or?

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I had been thinking sort of along these lines too.. would it be possible to restrict how many units can be built at a time depending on how many appropriate resources are owned by the player?

For example, Britain owns 1 Iron resource and can have 2 cities simultaneously build Axeman, while Russian owns 3 Iron resources and can have 6 cities simultaneously build Axeman. I think this would be help in instigating fights for resources, which are pretty tame as you only need 1 of any resource to take advantage of building a unit requiring that resource. Granted, the Health/Commerce bonuses that stack are useful, and if you have corporations, naturally, but thats pretty much the end of the line for resource control.

I think by limiting the number of units able to be built per resource we can open up a whole new avenue of gameplay & strategy

Imagine the conflict that would occur with having to secure multiple oil resources for all the modern age units

i just realized this was the place to discuss unit strengths, so i'll paste what i wrote in the 2.6 discussion thread:

i've played with the new unit strengths in a new game. i generally like the changes, but i have to say trebuchets (and probably other siege) are way too strong. no normal unit in the middle ages can withstand strength 18 city attack, and 18 attack with collateral damage is just extreme. even veteran longbows and crossbows just melt away. it's basically a race to see who can move up the trebs to cities fastest.

0100010 said:

I don't recommend going below 3 Str for the basic archer.

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I was thinking that 'Peasant Archer' would be str 3 and Archer would have str 5 or 6 so that it would be between 'Peasant Archer' and 'Longbowman'.

Nightguard said:

One thing that I do want to point out regarding your 'same cost in hammers per point of str' statement at the beginning of this thread. That might work, except for the consideration of unit speeds and specials. If you're trying to make a cost system that keeps costs balanced for units, you need to assign a point equivalent for things such as +1 base speed, +(whatever)% against given units, and things like that. You might even need to look at whether given unit categories are inherently more powerful due to lack of counterunits, and possibly assign a cost modifier there as well.

Click to expand...

I haven't got that far yet when making those excel sheets but yes, movement was going to be one factor when calculating cost. The sheets that I posted (included in 2.6patch as well) already calculate estimates for all unit bonuses with given str&cost. Now the question is how to factor in the unit moves: for example should each movement point increase unit cost say 10%?