What happened to the West Roman Army after 410?

Teeninvestor

Warlord
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
237
Location
Ottawa, Canada
My impression from reading Gibbons is that the West Roman Army "disappeared" after its defeats in 406 after the Alemmani crossed the Rhine.

Was it destroyed in battles? or did it linger on, unable to fight? Because by the time Alaric's visigoths entered Italy, it seems like there was no longer an army to fight them. I mean, they besieged Rome three times without interference....

After Alaric's retreat from Rome, there was technically a "Roman" Army in the west but it was made up completely of visigoths and other Germanic tribes.
 
I think Stilicho took a large army and fought in the east, and when he heard Alaric was in Italy he went to fight but the Radagaisus tribes were in his way when he crossed the Danube. Though I think that may be a few years to early.
 
It actually did disappear, though not overnight. The vast territorial losses in the West meant a huge drain of income, meaning the army as it was couldn't be maintained. (That's the short version.)
 
My impression from reading Gibbons is that the West Roman Army "disappeared" after its defeats in 406 after the Alemmani crossed the Rhine.
Ah. This is the wrong impression to get.
Teeninvestor said:
Was it destroyed in battles? or did it linger on, unable to fight? Because by the time Alaric's visigoths entered Italy, it seems like there was no longer an army to fight them. I mean, they besieged Rome three times without interference....
The reason that Rome was besieged repeatedly was because the Italian field army was sent into Gaul to deal with the revolt of 'Constantine III', who took the legions from Britain and moved into Gaul. (That's actually one of the reasons why the Alemanni, Vandali et al weren't met closer to the Rhine by the Roman military; it was off suppressing a usurper.) Basically, from 406 to about 413, when the victories of Constantius III reconquered Gaul for the Empire, a three-way war was going on: Constantine III and his usurper troops were fighting the Vandali, Alemanni, Alani, Suevi, and the rest, who were also fighting Constantius, who was in control of the legitimist Roman troops, in bad need of reinforcement.

To deal with the problem in Gaul, Stilicho, who had been magister militum before then and who had dealt quite ably with the invasion of Radagaisus, was engaging in some diplomatic maneuvering with the Eastern Empire. He wanted to acquire Eastern Illyricum so as to get the benefit of Alaric's Visigothi, who were settled there, to fight off his various enemies. This actually ended up leading to war with the Eastern Empire, which sucked up more military resources as Alaric and Stilicho banded together to try to force Arcadius, the Eastern Emperor, to heel quickly and get the crisis over with. They got lucky when Arcadius died in 408, but that was, in a rather roundabout way, Stilicho's undoing. He'd spent basically all of his political capital trying to get the Senate and Emperor to fund an alliance with the Visigothi, and people were already starting to get angry; when he left for Constantinople in 408 to oversee the transition of power, one Olympius managed to persuade the Western Emperor, Honorius, that he was merely trying to gain the Eastern throne for his son Eucherius. Stilicho's supporters were duly purged in the army and he himself was recalled to face execution at Ravenna.

Without Stilicho, the Senate, in a fit of lunacy, declared war on the Visigothi, which then descended into Italy. A good portion of the remainder of the Roman field army in Italy (well, what parts hadn't been sent to Gaul to fight the currently-losing battle against Constantine III) was mauled then, and even further in the fighting that ensued when Alaric promoted a Senator, Priscus Attalus, to the purple as a direct rival to Honorius. After that, though, the Empire not only got lucky, but some of its innate strength shone through. When Alaric died in southern Italy in 410, his Visigothi were under the leadership of Athaulf, who quit Italy for southern France. The aforementioned Constantius was appointed magister militum and in a brilliant 411 campaign around Arelate shredded Constantine III's troops. Another minor usurper, named Jovinus, popped up; he too was put down, and by 413 all Gaul was back in imperial hands. The Alani, Suevi, Vandali, and Alemanni had mostly passed into Spain by this time (and would end up fighting a series of campaigns with the Empire and the Visigothi during the late 410s and early 420s). Athaulf, after playing some power games with the Roman princess, Galla Placidia, was the victim of a coup in 415, which installed a man more amenable to alliance with Rome, Wallia. Wallia and Constantius would finish cleaning up Gaul in the next few years and then carry the war into Spain.
Teeninvestor said:
After Alaric's retreat from Rome, there was technically a "Roman" Army in the west but it was made up completely of visigoths and other Germanic tribes.
That's not true at all. The Visigothi after the 410s were foederati; they were settled in Aquitania and had the obligation to serve Rome militarily as an adjunct to the main army. Anyway, the Notitia Dignitatum for 420, the list of all Western Roman military forces after the momentous previous decades, shows that the Western Roman military was comprised of some 181 legiones (not equivalent to Republican legions, which had several times more men; a better comparison would be a modern 'regiment'), irregardless of the levy from the Romans' various foederati. The army had suffered some 47% casualties since the last Notitia (in 395, at the end of the reign of Theodosius) among its comitatenses, the regular field army units. That had largely been recouped numerically, however, by promoting units of limitanei (frontier guards, basically) into the field army; these were legiones pseudocomitatenses. This was, of course, in addition to the ~100 legions recruited since 395.

So yeah: definitely not "all barbarian" by any stretch of the imagination. :)
 
I thought the OP probably meant more that the Roman army became less and less a Roman army of national defense and purpose, but evolved into an assemblage of local defense forces, nominally Roman legions but largely controlled and dominated by lightly Romanized local elites. The actual tipping point may be hard to id. I don't know, I'm familiar with very broad outlines, not the details....???????
 
I thought the OP probably meant more that the Roman army became less and less a Roman army of national defense and purpose, but evolved into an assemblage of local defense forces, nominally Roman legions but largely controlled and dominated by lightly Romanized local elites. The actual tipping point may be hard to id. I don't know, I'm familiar with very broad outlines, not the details....???????
If I remember my Gibbons, and I try hard not to, which is what TI is basing his OP on, that's not what he said. Gibbons is a terrible historian with a massive agenda, and ignores inconvenient facts. Dachs' post covers what actually happened, Gibbons basically said something along the lines of the Roman Army simply disintegrating in the face of barbarian onslught.
 
? Dachs' post is interesting (I see his point about the West Roman army's still being in the field for some time) but I must be missing the part of about the army's ultimate fate: if it wasn't destroyed in some apocalyptic battle, and didn't evolve, as I suggested, into local defense forces mostly Roman in name only, then what?
 
If I remember my Gibbons, and I try hard not to, which is what TI is basing his OP on, that's not what he said. Gibbons is a terrible historian with a massive agenda, and ignores inconvenient facts. Dachs' post covers what actually happened, Gibbons basically said something along the lines of the Roman Army simply disintegrating in the face of barbarian onslught.

He doesn't really mention the Roman Army after the sack of Rome...
 
? Dachs' post is interesting (I see his point about the West Roman army's still being in the field for some time) but I must be missing the part of about the army's ultimate fate: if it wasn't destroyed in some apocalyptic battle, and didn't evolve, as I suggested, into local defense forces mostly Roman in name only, then what?
Slowly ground down by a combination of lack of money (a problem that really hit home after the Vandali took North Africa, a key source of revenue for the Roman state), attrition, and the occupation of several key points within Western Roman territory, leading to the loss of some important recruitment grounds. And even after 476, there were still shreds of the Roman Army in the West still in existence for quite some time. Syagrius had his Dominion of Noviodunum in northern Gaul, which the celebrated Clovis destroyed; in Dalmatia, Julius Nepos held out for a few more years with a significant portion of the old army, only to be finally destroyed by an expedition from Odoacer in the 480s. I think there was also a Romano-Mauretanian state in Tingitana, which was virtually abandoned after the Vandali swept through in the 420s, which remained distinct for some time beyond that, although the Tingitanan dux really didn't have all that many troops at his disposal (and even less after the Vandali moved through).

And, you're also partly right - parts of the army, mostly among the limitanei, did evolve into local defense forces. There is the example of Noricum, which was mostly left alone by barbarians and impractical for the central government at Ravenna to hold. So the troops who lived there kept the people safe for awhile, slowly being ground down and assimilated (and assimilating in turn).
 
? Dachs' post is interesting (I see his point about the West Roman army's still being in the field for some time) but I must be missing the part of about the army's ultimate fate: if it wasn't destroyed in some apocalyptic battle, and didn't evolve, as I suggested, into local defense forces mostly Roman in name only, then what?
Read Dachs' and Jeelen's posts for that info. It should allso be noted that there is quite a bit of emerging evidence - still being debated, so take this with a grain of salt - that the 'Anglo-Saxons' may actually have just been local strongmen that created a mythology around themselves after rising to power in England. Most of the immediate post-Roman petty kings were almost certainly Romano-British military commanders.
 
Read Dachs' and Jeelen's posts for that info. It should allso be noted that there is quite a bit of emerging evidence - still being debated, so take this with a grain of salt - that the 'Anglo-Saxons' may actually have just been local strongmen that created a mythology around themselves after rising to power in England. Most of the immediate post-Roman petty kings were almost certainly Romano-British military commanders.

then why is english a germanic language and not a romance/celtic one?
 
It's Gibbon, people, come on!

then why is english a germanic language and not a romance/celtic one?

Because even on the most revisionary account of the Anglo-Saxon "invasions", there still were invasions, but they resulted not in massive population displacement but in cultural conversion. Basically there are two theories:

(1) The traditional one, according to which the Saxons and others invaded in considerable force and great numbers with the aim of settling, and they literally displaced most of the Romano-British, who retreated to the fringes and turned into the Welsh and Cornish.

(2) The revisionist one, according to which the Saxons and others invaded in somewhat less force and considerably fewer numbers, but succeeded in wresting control of the existing kingdoms and intermingling with the locals, transforming their culture.

Either way, what is now England was pretty much entirely Anglo-Saxon in culture by the sixth century, so from that point of view it doesn't really matter which theory is closer to the truth. One of the ways you can tell this is by considering that England was one of the very few places where Christianity was established and subsequently wiped out again as a result of pagan barbarian influx (Dacia was another place where this happened).
 
According to Gibbons the Anglo-Saxons were the fiercest of the German invaders, literally massacring all of the Romano-British population. Italy suffered the next worst. Bascially, according to him, when the barbarians took over the Roman Empire they literally exterminated or assimilated its entire population, destroying its culture.
 
Then why is Italian a Romance language instead of a Germanic one?
 
Either way, what is now England was pretty much entirely Anglo-Saxon in culture by the sixth century, so from that point of view it doesn't really matter which theory is closer to the truth. One of the ways you can tell this is by considering that England was one of the very few places where Christianity was established and subsequently wiped out again as a result of pagan barbarian influx (Dacia was another place where this happened).

When was Christianity wiped out in Dacia? :)
 
According to Gibbons the Anglo-Saxons were the fiercest of the German invaders, literally massacring all of the Romano-British population. Italy suffered the next worst. Bascially, according to him, when the barbarians took over the Roman Empire they literally exterminated or assimilated its entire population, destroying its culture.
Gibbon was clearly drinking or stoned when writing that drivel. Considering that, oh, the vast majority of English people are direct descendants of said Romano-Britons, the vast majority of whom were descendants of the Britons.

Assimilated is correct in some cases - such as England - intermingled is much closer to the truth. In some places Roman culture survived almost untouched for a while.
 
According to Gibbons the Anglo-Saxons were the fiercest of the German invaders, literally massacring all of the Romano-British population. Italy suffered the next worst. Bascially, according to him, when the barbarians took over the Roman Empire they literally exterminated or assimilated its entire population, destroying its culture.
What Sharwood said. :p In addition, Gibbon didn't have the benefit of the last three hundred years of scholarship on the barbarians. Even in the last fifty years our knowledge of virtually everything in Europe and the Mediterranean during the Later Roman Empire has been transformed.
 
Back
Top Bottom