Silk03 - Army of Veterans (conq/dom/monarch/huge)

With Silk02 looking like a failure (can we put a spy on the AI space ship and sabotage it just before it arrives on Alpha Centuri? ), it is time to look ahead to Silk03.

Credit for this variant goes to Dualmaster. The idea with this game is to win via domination or conquest, meanwhile building up an army of veterans that would make George Patton look like a boy playing with a BB gun. Thats right - who gives a hoot about in this game. This game is all about and making the AI in front of our mighty generals.

Here are the rules we must abide by:
- Wonders: Must build Great Wall and Pentagon (or capture at the very least)
- Civics: Must immediately (when available) switch to and remain in Vassalage and Theocracy.
- Techs: Be the first to Fascism

Additional rules:
- Must build HE and WP in same city
- Must settle all GGs in HE city
- Must have at least:
30 Units with >30 XP
3 Units with >50 XP
1 Unit with >75 XP (aka Big Thumper)
- Win by conquest/domination only (all VC enabled for AI though)

Our leader for this will be Cyrus. Imperialistic/Charismatic for faster GG emergence and -25% XP for promo's.

Rules are up for discussion, and others can be added if deemed necessary (such as Immortal ban in enemy lands until 1 AD).

Game variables:
Map Type: Pangea
Map Size: Huge
Difficulty: Monarch
Game Speed: Epic

Roster:
Dualmaster
Cripp7
Silk1976
Sengir
CHEESE!
Dr Yes


I'll roll a few starts this evening and we can start discussions.

Checking in. Looks like a great ruleset

Anyways, after a peaceful culture game, I'm ready to stomp some bad guys.

dualmaster said:

Checking in. Looks like a great ruleset

Anyways, after a peaceful culture game, I'm ready to stomp some bad guys.

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I know one thing for certain - there will NOT be an incestuous hindu lovefest this time around. If there is, we will DoW on the infidels.

I remember Dr Yes saying that the AI was going to be singing kumbaya until 2050 in Silk02. At the time (what was it - like 500 BC?) I doubted that would be the case. Whoops!

No lovie-dovie this time. Our will endure for all time!

Checking in. What unit is going to be Big Thumper? Either a mounted (Immortal) or start out a axe/sword

This sounds like my kind of game. Too bad I am swamped with SGs and coursework, else I'd join (the huge map would probably explode my poor laptop as well). So I'll be lurking this one for sure.

EDIT: BTW, it'll be fun seeing how you guys get a 75XP unit without attached GGs and the leadership promotion.

EDIT2: Especially since upgrading non-GG units wipes them down to 10XP.

Hopefully we'll get a couple more people enrolled in the next day or so - but in the mean time, here are the glorious starts - which represent the epitome of my luck:

A - Clambake


B - Goody Huts


C - (no good name for this, except maybe 'SuckyStart')


D - I can't see the forest, but I can see a cow through the trees


E - I can see clearly oops.. more forest.


Maybe someone else should roll starts in future Silk0-x SG's

Anyhow - my initial gut reactions:
A - Good coast start, lots of forests for chopping out the GW. Underlying tiles can then be converted to farms or cottages. Generally a good deal of and possibilities.

B - mediocre start once you get past the rice, pigs and clams and two goodie huts. Lots of plains, and doesn't seem very flexible.

C - kinda the same as B, but less so in terms of possibilities and more so in terms of suckage.

D - no shortage of forests for chopping the GW here. Underlying terrain is decent with hills and the river. Probably a good chance of Cu or Fe right nearby.

E - Similar to D - but a little more food readily available.

I'm kinda leaning D, A, E, B, C (at least, until others point out obvious flaws in my logic).

Oh yeah - and game conditions:


(I just realized the screenies are a bit small. Sorry about that. My laptop resolution is set quite high. If need be, I can redo them at a lower res).

Can't play a map this size but I always enjoy the starting discussion.

I like E the most for a war based game. Lot's of food, forest and hills. This is the most flexible start, can do almost anything with it.

Alternative best start I think is A (but moving inland one tile) and building lots of cottages to drive research/support the war. Under monarchy could work an exceptional number of tiles.
This is the best teching start and takes preference over E if you're concerned about your economy/research rate.

D is similar to E but without the food, I think it will slow you down too much. Of course if there are pigs or corn to the East in the fog then it probably jumps above E due to all those river tiles. Problem is it could just as easily be another plains cow in the west instead which leaves you with a grand total of +2 surplus fod from specials.

I'm really looking forward to watching this one play out.

Best of luck everyone =)

S.ilver said:

EDIT2: Especially since upgrading non-GG units wipes them down to 10XP.

Click to expand...

Really?

Hmm.. might have to do that 75 XP guy later on in the game, rather than build him up throughout. Maybe get him upgraded to a decent modern unit (infantry or whatever), and then use other troops to weaken enemies, and send this guy in for clean up every time. Cuz you get 2 XP when you attack and win, right?

So, he'd only have to run mop up duty (75-10)/2 = 32 times or so; OR - we settle like 30 something generals.

(why do I like playing these games that are either doomed to failure, or have a major major catch that might make them virtually impossible?!)

A few things....

You are aiming for total exp yet chose a charismatic leader (Cyrus sans immortals is a great choice). This leads me to believe you actually meant total LEVELS of units, not their raw exp.

Base equation btw is x squared plus 1. Where X is the base number of promotions. Charismatic saves 25% rounded up.

What the game considers Unit level is number of promo's -1 (i.e. the level 6 unit required for west point needs 26xp(20xp cha)

The exp table so you don't need to do the math...



I would also seriously suggest going marathon for this game and update total number of troops needed at what number of promos.

The reason for this is because upgrading troops resets their total exp down to 10 exp unless there's a Great General attached so you want the maximum amount of time to use any one era's worth of units.

For your Big Thumper unit btw, I would also suggest adding the requirement for the first Great general be attached to him and just tack on the 20 free exp to the total level goal you want. That means he never needs to go obsolete and if he dies, you lose. Keep in mind you need to decide on if you will allow the leadership promo from said great general as that doubles exp earned.

This really isn't a sort of SG you want to just dive into without at least understandings what a "75exp" unit really entails; Something a liq has never seen outside of the world builder or just heinous great general abuse.

Whichever

Cheers!
-Liq

That's a very good point Liq makes. To hit those xp goals you're going to need to fight a LOT. That works in well with marathon speed where units are more plentiful.

The downside of course is marathon on a huge map takes a couple of years to play ;P

I'd go D,A also, D allows lots of chops. AH>Mining>BW,Masonry to start. Also marathon would allow longer wars, just have to play a little longer sets

Liquidated said:

This really isn't a sort of SG you want to just dive into without at least understandings what a "75exp" unit really entails; Something a liq has never seen outside of the world builder or just heinous great general abuse.

Whichever

Cheers!
-Liq

Click to expand...

I've got a leadership promotion once early on with my first axeman from an event in a game of mine. It was a pangea, marathon, standard sized map with 14 civilizations... He got around 80 exp before I made the huge mistake of updating him to a maceman. I stopped playing that game right there...


I also agree about changing something in the rule so this game won't be so darn hard! That said, I will be lurking, sounds lovely! I won't sign in because I've got too many SGs right now, huge map will mess my computer up and war isn't my strengh.

Seems a trend - can always count on Liq to come in and throw a big ass $#!^ storm on the idea being used for my SG's!

(in all seriousness - I definately do appreciate the comments, though. Helps take a game that may be damn near impossible to just hard as all hell)

I guess we'll have to discuss the options and possibly reroll.

RE: 75XP Unit-
Yes, a 75 XP unit will be tough - especially without a GG. But I did have that in mind when I laid out the ruleset (though I had forgotten about the reset on upgrade). That is possibly the biggest challenge for this game. And as previously mentioned, I wanted to see what a 75XP unit looks like (10 promos!?!?! )

Based on my trial run, at least into the medieval era we'll be producing new units with higher experience than previous units. I figure as soon as we have access to knights we'll pop out a 20-25 XP knight. Upgrade with flanking promos and then Combat to maximize his survivability. We'll only use him in "safe" attacks, after we've redlined enemy units with siege. I figure a Knight can still be effective into much later times that way. And yes, we may have to form a special bodygaurd to protect Big Thumper wherever he goes. Another idea is to perma-siege an enemy town - use siege to re-redline all defenders then have only Big Thumper attack, rinse and repeat the next turn. Once we get military science we can give him Blitz so he can attack 2x per turn. Add in March promo and he'll be able to heal at the same time (I think?).

Also notice our ruleset doesn't allow any Medic III healers. We should easily be able to do WIIIMII though. If anyone on the team feels the XP requirements are too tough, I'd be ok with an exception for attaching one GG, but to do it without would be sweet.

RE: Marathon/Epic-
I've never played marathon. It would be very long and slow. On Epic we will definitely have to focus on fast and constant war to finish in time. Marathon would be less time constrained. There would also be tons of units to kill. Again, I'll go with whatever.

EDIT: I kinda like Liq's idea that we could attach one Great General to Big Thumper, but increase the XP requirement. Allow him to get the Leadership promo and increase the requirement to 100 XP?

RE: Starts-

E is yummy for a serious early production city. Settling on a plains hill, we can irrigate corn with starting techs, we'll be getting AH early for pigs, a couple of hills to mine (and food to work them) plus tons of choppable forest. This screams for early immortal rush/expansion by conquest.

The rest I rate as lesser.

Dual - I'm glad it sounds like many of the concerns have been thought out

Whats the reason why the rules doesn't allow a Medic III?

Permanent seige was kinda the way I was thinking when I mentioned running mop-up duty. I completely forgot about the march promo that'll mean instead of running mop-up 30 something turns, it can be in fewer.

So - at least we have some agreement on a potential way to get that 75 XP.

RE: Cyrus and his 25% less XP for promo's - since a unit controlled by Cyrus will reach level 10 in 76 XP, whereas other leaders reach that level at 100 XP - can you have more than 10 promo's? That may be a benefit because BT (Big Thumper) will be so drastically promo'd that even if he is kept at a knight during the whole game, any promo's like strength, melee, gunpowder, etc might actually help keep him alive.

RE: game speed - That was actually something we discussed offline before starting this (we wanted to avoid a repeat of Silk02 where there were 5 pages of discussion before anything got moving). We opted to go with Epic instead of marathon because the later turnsets are likely to be a long lasting slugfest as it is. Although marathon is better for a protracted war - we wanted to keep things moving at molasses speed, instead of snail speed

I'd like to join if you'd have me. My warmongering is a bit rusty, but should be up to date by the end of this SG, I figure.

About the ruleset, I would allow one GG to attach to Big Thumper, but increase the XP (probably to 150xp, as with leadership you get double xp, so doubling the target seems reasonable).

As for speed: I wouldn't mind marathon, but would like to let you know in advance that I'm planning to go on holiday for a week (maybe a bit more) in July/August. Exact date to be determined

As for starts: I'll hold my mouth untill there's a decision on gamespeed (and possible rerolls).

Lurker's comment:

What do you need the Charismatic trait for? iirc you're aiming for xp, not unit levels

should be fun to observe though, best luck!

silk1976 said:

Whats the reason why the rules doesn't allow a Medic III?

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The rules don't specifically forbid it, but you need a GG attached to enable MIII.

uXp.banshee said:

What do you need the Charismatic trait for? iirc you're aiming for xp, not unit levels

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More promotions. Our troops starting with 8 XP will have 3 promos instead of just 2. Makes them much more powerful and more likely to survive long enough to gain more XP. Not to mention the nice little bonus (even better after we capture stonehenge ).

Sengir said:

About the ruleset, I would allow one GG to attach to Big Thumper, but increase the XP (probably to 150xp, as with leadership you get double xp, so doubling the target seems reasonable).

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150XP is a little over the top - I fear we would just be sitting there with the game almost won, just doing boring attacks with that one unit until he reaches the goal. Also doubling the XP due to leadership is not quite comparable, because the starting XP of the unit would not be effected by the leadership bonus. I think 100XP is reasonable and we can always make it our special mission to drive him higher.

You can't get MIII without a leader attached, even with lots of promo's? Didn't know that.

I'm not really sure why people are hung up on this charismatic trait and levels business - yes, we are looking for XP - that doesn't change. All charismatic does is allow the unit to be more highly promoted when it does get to 75 XP.

I agree with staying @ 75 XP. We've already had reasons listed why it'll be difficult - no need to make it worse! I may be ok with 100 XP only if we allow a GG to attach to him - but I'm still thinking I'd prefer to not do that, for the unique challenge (I might change my mind though).