Immortal University XX - Stalin

TheMeInTeam

If A implies B...
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Jan 26, 2008
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Hello all and welcome to the Immortal University! This series was started a long time ago to move a group of the forum's players to the next level. Are you ready for the U?

This is the 20th in the storied series.

We will uphold the university's traditions...smacking down the hapless AI!

Our leader this time around:



Not a super popular leader, but we'll have to deal with it. I suggest corp spam for some "madscientist historical flavor", but do what you gotta do to win! Our UB is late but good, UU is solid if unspectacular. You might wind up using it just because it's based on a good regular troop. Kind of like the ballista elephant but less painfully terrible.

Here's the start:



This was the VERY FIRST GAME that generated. Huts and events are off by default (this is a game comparison and learning thread, after all), although if it bothers you terribly you can add the latter back. I reserve the personal right to point and laugh if the vedic aryans knock on your door though.

To play, just extract the WB save file into your worldbuilder saves directory, then play it. Use custom scenario if you want some extra settings to tickle your fancy. This series was designed for people learning immortal, so most people here will be at that level or trying to attain it, although deity players are welcome also. Hell, if you want to play this on NOBLE, go ahead, but I'm not peeling off the AI bonuses. The intention of this and any other game thread I post is to get better. Play whatever level you need in order to improve. Just remember, there are immortal bonuses and that's not going to change unless you WB edit it.

I do request people to list their difficulty and speed. In terms of updates, well nobody follows that anyway. Post in the manner you feel comfortable. Typical comparison dates are 1 AD, liberalism, and victory/defeat, as well as any major events. If in doubt, go with that.

Without further ado, the ZIP file:

View attachment IU XX Stalin.zip
 
The adantage of a WB save is people can choose their difficulty level. However, this somewhat defeats the purpose of the "Immortal University" if you ask me.
The drawback is the barbs lose archery which causes the games to differ from normal immortal games. In conclusion, I ask if it would not be better to post a regular save? :)
 
The adantage of a WB save is people can choose their difficulty level. However, this somewhat defeats the purpose of the "Immortal University" if you ask me.
The drawback is the barbs lose archery which causes the games to differ from normal immortal games. In conclusion, I ask if it would not be better to post a regular save? :)

The issue isn't difficulty, but speed.

Giving archery back to the barbs via world-builder is slightly easier than varying speed. Also, people CAN vary the difficulty if they need to, and that includes going UP for the few who are capable. IMO this just offers the most flexibility.

But probably in future posts I'll mention the barbs/archery problem, although I don't think it's THAT big of a deal ----> my experience in these is in line with immortal LHC games and my games offline.
 
I think we should try to get an experience that is as authentic as possible, so that would include barb archers...

Otherwise I do not really care. I will try to participate but I'll have o see how fast I can get my papers out of the way.
 
The issue isn't difficulty, but speed.

Giving archery back to the barbs via world-builder is slightly easier than varying speed. Also, people CAN vary the difficulty if they need to, and that includes going UP for the few who are capable. IMO this just offers the most flexibility.

But probably in future posts I'll mention the barbs/archery problem, although I don't think it's THAT big of a deal ----> my experience in these is in line with immortal LHC games and my games offline.

Alright, speed is a good point. I know I had help for my first few immortal games in changing the speed to epic. Then again, it's this series that made me switch to normal speed exclusively and I'm glad I did.

I think the barbs lacking archery still has a noticeable impact on games, for one, you don't need to be so concerned with getting Archery rapidly.
One of the main advantages of the russian starting techs Hunting/Mining is that you can go AH-BW and still research Archery as your third tech, that's huge on deity at least, in essence giving you a double chance of skipping the archery tech altogether.
But this is immortal so I guess it's not quite as noticeable here even though I think it will have an impact. You usually have time to hook up strategic resources that are close to the capital on immortal though, I used to go warriors then whip settler at size 4 and rush to hook up a resources. On deity I'll most often grow to cap and spam units including archers or better until I start losing money (at least with a gold hut aquired) and only then build my first settler.
 
Going for a fast Great Wall this game. Ind + mining + no commerce trade = GW :p
 
Immortal/Epic, 4000BC - 40AD:

Spoiler :

See no reason not to settle in place. Start AH > BW and worker > warrior. Meet Monty on turn 8, on turn 19 he founds Hinduism and converts. He is close. Meet Justinian on turn 23 and he's the Buddhist founder.

We have horses close by so a chariot rush on Monty is not out of the question, but I am terrible at chariot rushes and for every one successful rush I lose nine horribly. Since there is bound to be some religious strife here I'll see if I can play it defensively, although there's a danger of being boxed in.

Maybe we have copper, let's see.

Scout dies too soon on turn 32. Land seems pretty unremarkable so far. There's lots of gold and stone right next to Monty. Maybe a rush is the way to go here after all.

2625BC:

Settle St. Petersburg.



1875BC:

And Monty demands I close borders with Justinian. Will do.



1850BC:

Found Novgorod. My tech path is completely off so far, my slider's down to 30% and I don't have Pottery yet.



1525BC:

Monty founds Judaism and promptly converts.

1250BC:

Monty converts back to Hinduism. Make up your mind. Pottery is still like 15 turns off and I really really need it. Ugh.

725BC:

Monty declares on Justinian, Zara declares on Monty. This is Pangeia I guess, I also meet De Gaulle and Brennus. Met Roosevelt a bit earlier.

600BC:

Found Rostov.



500BC:

Zara gifts me Iron Working. Thanks.

Anyway, diplo is a mess with a lot of religious groups and wars all over. I haven't adopted any yet. That's something to be hopeful about as maybe it'll slow the AIs down a bit.



I just finished Aesthetics, considered going Parthenon/Great Library with the marble, but the tech situation isn't looking very bright:



I think maybe a wiser course of action would be to trade for Math/Masonry, hit Construction and see what I can grab of Monty's land while he's busy fighting elsewhere.

Empire:


 
Without spoiling to much, this is a hard one again :). Reminds me of the Zulu game, different but still very very hard
 
Immortal/Epic, 40AD - 760AD:

Spoiler :

40AD:

Give Aesthetics to Roosevelt for Math. Why don't you go ahead and build some wonders. Give Aesthetics to De Gaulle for Masonry, Fishing, Meditation, Archery and 10g. Start on Construction.

115AD:

Monty demands Aesthetics... no. I don't care about pissing him off at this point, he's still at war with Justinian and I plan on attacking him soon anyway.

445AD:

Horseback Riding is in and I trade copper to Zara for ivory. No time for stables, going to whip 5-6 elephants, a few more catapults and attack.

490AD:

Monty beats me to the punch! But there is no stack in sight, just an elephant and a spearman. That's all right, I was almost ready anyway.

For some reason Roosevelt is backwards, so I give him HR and Construction for Currency and Polytheism. Really need the boost to the economy.

565AD:

My stack facing Monty's garrison at Calixtlahuaca:



And the inevitable result:



595AD:

De Gaulle vassals to Brennus. Monty sends his Hindu missionaries to safety, I guess.



625AD:

With only one catapult taking down Tenchtitlan's 85% cultural defences would take ages, so I just suicide it immediately. I lose a lot of units (well, four or five) but take the city. Hindu shrine with +19g plus Chichen Itza.



730AD:

Capture Tlatelolco. There is a danger that Monty will vassal to Justinian, unfortunately I don't have anything to bribe Justinian out of war with.



760AD:

Monty vassals to Justinian. Oh well, there was nothing I could do about it. More importantly Brennus (+ De Gaulle) declares war on me.

Stopped here because I need to regroup and figure out where to go from here. Here's the empire:



And tech situation, looks bad but it's not hopelessly so. All this warring has slowed down the tech rate in general.


 
Immortal/Normal

Spoiler :
No pics, getting lazy, lol. I grew to size 2, made a settler, and aggressively settled far East securing 3 beaver, 1 cow, 1 deer, 1 copper city. I then choppped out SH at city 2 (1960BC).

I'm using TMIT warrior/scout fogbusting and doing fine so far, especially against warriors. My 2nd city was also aggressively settled taking the 3Gold, 1 horse, 1 Wine, 1 oasis spot. Early it works 1 farm, 1 oasis, and 2 gold + hooks up horse at size 4. When Monarchy comes on it will be a huge size 5 city lol. The important thing is I have claimed 3 happiness resources :) Yea happy cap + trade bait.

Tech path:

Spoiler :
Research went basics to writing (13-1400BC + 2 scientist), pottery, Asthetics. Traded for alpha and other basics. Monte is at war with justine and hates everyone as usual. I gifted Monte writing and gave in to a demand + converted to his religion. Then I went Literature, Drama (bulbed philo w/ 2nd gs just after 1AD) and traded for Monarchy and some other goodies. Had to research COL myself =/. CS then beelining for Liberalism.


@ 1000 BC I have only 3 cities, with a settler coming out soon.

4th city gets fish, copper, and marble. 5th city goes in a spot that gets wheat + sheep. 6th city is stolen from Justinine from culture (gogo SH!). I completed the GL just shortly after 100 AD.

This map is a$$ backwards, very poor, don't like it, it sucks, I hate the game, etc :) So, what do I do? Here is what I plan to do.


1. Forget infrastructure because this maps blows and trying to use the land I have for a long term investment is a bad idea - at least until I conquer a neighbor.
2. Emphasis on max food everywhere. Each city will get nothing more than a granary, barracks, and theatre. I'm not even gonna get CHs - maybe one city chopped.
3. Use the GL/NE Capital in conjunction with HR, and Caste/pacifism in all my cities. Run mass scientist everywhere.
4. CS should be finished around 400 BC which is pretty good because everyone has been at war and seems backwards. Head up Liberalism beeline.
5. Build globe theatre somewhere ^^.
6. Bulb paper, education x2, and liberalism and be sure to trade/research engineering.
7. Use a GS to start a GA and get a GM while every other city quickly produces catapults. I should be able to produce 10-13 during this GA and at 110 gold a pop can upgrade them to Trebs from GM trade mission.
8. Pick Nationalism as my free tech, run nationhood, and begin drafting the crap out of every single city I have while pushing the culture slider way up.
9. Before 1000 AD start my war with around 12 trebs + 20 - 24 Mace. Kill Monte.
10. Continue teching bulbing towards Chemistry, SM, Communism, Biology and lay down mass workshops everywhere.
11. Head up AL and go to war again with cannon/Infantry then finish the world off with Tanks!




 
Without spoiling to much, this is a hard one again :). Reminds me of the Zulu game, different but still very very hard
Good, I am looking even more forward to it then. I am curious to see if it is harder than my current immortal game where I am trapped as Mansa Musa in between Gilgamesh and Stalin in a very tight space of land... My thread on the first page somewhere.

I think I am getting better and better in immortal and am very much curious how I would do on this one. Bring on the trouble! :D
 
Immortal/Epic, 760AD - 1345AD. It's slipping even further away.

Spoiler :

Okay, taking a slower turn to figure out a plan. I was teching CS but think it's better to go Compass, only one AI has it and it's 11 turns compared to CS at 19, so maybe I'll be able to get something in trade for it. Negotiate some resource deals as well and beg Justinian for 150g.

Wish I could adopt a religion but it's better to just stay without one, I might still be able to rebuild relations with Brennus after this war. In any case I need to focus on economy now. Probably no more wars for a long time. Hopefully I can relieve some culture pressure off Tenochtitlan so it can be decently productive.

860AD:

Compass in. By now the only ones who don't have it are the two I'm at war with. I go Civil Service next, no one has Paper yet, maybe I can go that route to find some trades.

Someone destroys all market progress in Tenochtitlan. Damnit I need that for the shrine.

880AD:

Make peace with Brennus, giving him Compass, after my chariot killed his scout. Give Compass to De Gaulle for 140g. Situation is not very good, Justinian has dropped to Cautious.

940AD:

Justinian back to Pleased after I voted him in the AP election. Finally getting around to doing some scouting with a couple of chariots, and Justinian's land is so good. No wonder he's so far ahead.

1070AD:

Paper in, but most already have it. Give it to Justinian for Metal Casting and Priesthood (plus gold), and to De Gaulle for Alphabet and Literature (plus gold). Start Education. I really need some great scientists, don't think I produced one GP so far. A few cities are well on their way, though.

1090AD:

AP resolution to give Tlatelolco back to Monty fails after I defy it, unhappiness abounds. This game is not on the right track.

1130AD:

I can't take the unhappiness hit, make a detour to Monarchy. I will probably get beaten to Education anyway but I just can't afford to be without HR so long.

1180AD:

Happiness problems solved, going to grow my cities as much as possible though I do have some more infra to whip, so a switch to Caste System will be delayed for a while.

1300AD:

Education to De Gaulle for Gunpowder, map and gold. Education to Monty for Philosophy. I have a GS due in 2 turns but still need to tech through Calender before I can bulb it. Roosevelt has been able to tech Lib for a while now, though, not sure I am going to make it.

1310AD:

AP unhappiness is killing me.



1315AD:

Bulb Liberalism, 5 turns left. But everyone already has Nationalism so taking it is pointless. I don't really have any other decent options, though.

1330AD:

Zara discovers Lib 2 turns before me. This is starting to feel like a losing battle, I'm having a hard time seeing victory here. I'll finish Lib, though, maybe I can get some stuff in trade for it if Zara won't whore it around first.

1340AD:

Revolt to Free Religion. Trade Lib to DG for Feudalism plus gold.

1345AD:

Trade Lib to Monty for Machinery plus gold. Everyone else already has it.

Tech situation still looking horrible. I can maybe chase Astronomy next but I'm having hard time catching up. Even UN victory doesn't seem likely given the diplo situation.


 
Immortal/Normal to 175BC:

Spoiler :
My very first game on immortal. And I struggle to win at emperor...

Anyway, I forgot to take screenshots (duh!). But heres my empire at 175BC:



Techpath: AH > BW > Wheel > Myst > Agri > Pottery > Writing > Fishing > Aesthetics. Then traded for math with Justinian and Iron+Masonry with De Gaulle.

My game so far have gone something like this:

4000BC - Settle in place. Start building a worker then some warriors

Met Monty(hindu) pretty quick. Met Justinian(jewish) too before I...

2520BC - founded St.Petersburg
1520BC - founded Novgorod
1400BC - founded Rostov

In 725BC Monty sendt a jewish(!) missionary St.Petersburg. At this point I found out he was WHEOOHRN and annoyed towards Justinian. In 700BC Justinian asked me to convert, I did(mistake?). Thought I could handle a war with Monty.

In 675BC I founded Yekaterinburg. Around 675-400BC I met the rest of the world(forgot to scout until then). My religion is causing some diplomatic problems, unsure if I should stay in judaism or not. Will I loose my +1 Accepted our religion with Justinian if I go no state or hindu?

Tech path? Guess meditation and then construction for some warring against Monty. Hopefully I can bribe Justinian to help me. Monty have been WHEOOHRN for a long time. I wonder if he would have declared on Justinian if I didn't convert to judaism. Now he is probably targeting me instead...

And yes, I know I'm teching slowly. Moscow is 1 turn away from my first GS. Don't know what to do with him.

 
Long segment from start to 1030 AD, epic speed, going well:

Spoiler :


Early tech path: AH - BW - archery - mysticism - wheel - agri - pottery - writing - aesthetics

At first It seems another very hard game, but imo diplo is much more manageable here. Justi and Monte always go for the early religions and so they did here. Justi buddhist and Monte hindu. Zealots with different religion, different peaceweight and a big shared border. Guess who's Monte's worst enemy right from the start. Everyone else has to go through Monte to attack us and he hates everyone.
So, as absurd as it may seem, making Monte our bff is a smart move here. And so I did.

First cities:

Spoiler :










Lucky gems:



Marble, future Moai:



GLib:



Missed the Parthenon, but Aesthetics trades had priority over that. Got some nice cash anyway.

And here are the details on my good pal Montezuma:



Empire at 1030, 1 turn to Lib:



Techs:



Diplo. Everyone hates me, but they hate Monte as well, so I'm pretty much immune vs any DoW:



Capital:



4 GS so far. Academy, philo, 2x education. Another one coming in 10 turns. I think I'll burn him on a golden age.
Justi already has Nationalism, but I think I'll take it anyway. Ind+marble should be enough to beat him to the Taj. Then I think epic backstabbing vs Monte with cuirassiers.




 
Immortal/Epic, 1345AD - 1660AD. The inevitable:

Spoiler :



Justinian was unstoppable but to be honest I lost this game in the BCs already. I was trying to make a late-game corporation-based cultural bid but it probably wouldn't have worked out anyway.

Looking forward to seeing how others handle this map. Only my third or fourth try on Immortal so I am not too bothered. I probably should've gone for the gold with my first city but I was worried settling too close would provoke an attack from Monty - in retrospect it made sense that he would go after Justinian considering the religious differences. The one thing I noted that's different to Emperor is that the 3rd city cripples your research really bad on this level - I delayed Pottery way, way too long and had to get there at 30% or so. More careful choice of techs and more aggressive settling and I think I might have had a better chance.
 
Doh! Cats can't upgrade to Trebs! =/ . Funny that I didn't know that, lol. Shows you how often I use Trebs :)
 
Doh! Cats can't upgrade to Trebs! =/ . Funny that I didn't know that, lol. Shows you how often I use Trebs :)

You'd think they would, huh? Some extra wood, tools and a free afternoon and you could get a treb from a cat but apparently not.

Another complaint i have is about the Sid pop-up advice. I wish instead of telling me to build an aqueduct in an unhealthy city, or maybe build another settler, he would catch things like this. Such as "You know you can't upgrade cats to trebs", or like in the last MS game "you sure you want to take steel from lib since you don't have iron for cannons?". I would imagine it would be difficult to code these tips into the game though.
 
Epic, 1030 - 1510:


Spoiler :


Ok, I admit the first war vs Monte has been a spectacular failure, so I reloaded and prebuilt a bunch of knights to upgrade later. Didn't know knight-->cuirassier was so cheap. I usually avoid reloading, but I'm an Immortal novice and the plan was good anyway. Just needed a little more micro.

Back to the events.
Lib:

Spoiler :


I take the standard Nat. No way for Justi to beat me to the Taj with marble+Ind AND a golden age via GS to speed it up:



Leaving me on this techboard:





Super fast (something like 10 turns) and double GA:



In this double GA I sell techs (mainly education) for a big pile of cash. Over 3k to deficit-research military tradition.
I don't need Montezuma anymore, so I adopt Buddhism (same as Justi and Brennus, the main powers in this game) as well as Theocracy (Justi's fav civic). I'm not the worst enemy of Brennus anymore and both will be pleased (safe) soon.

Look at Monte. A couple turns after adopting Buddhism he starts requesting stuff. At the second refusal he enters wheoohrn and a couple turns later:



His medieval junk isn't going to cut it vs cuirassiers:

Spoiler :




Thanks idiot. He takes a big power hit right at the start.
And get dogpiled by the world:



A nice shrine in Monte's capital:



Forgot to take the screen of Justi, but I bribe them both out of this war. I want Montezuma dead and no culture pressure on his cities. Pretty darn expensive, but I'm sure he was going to capitulate very soon:



I deal the final blow:



Justi and Brennus captured a couple cities, but I have a culture advantage on this land:



Core cities whipped to the bone. Not enough hammers to keep building cuirassiers:



New land. A lot of green, soon to be cottage-spammed:



Tech board isn't terrible. I'll fall behind for a while, but catch up quickly with the new land. 2 GP ready to start a GA and adopt mass-cottage civics.



Diplo couldn't be better. Brennus and Justi are pleased and can't declare:



Both Justi and Brennus are huge, but I think I'm in good shape. I'll probably wait for tanks/bombers for the next war.





 
1510 - 1863, seems hopeless:

Spoiler :


Brennus converts to Confu at some point, becoming Justi's worst enemy.
I stay in buddhism to keep Justi at friendly and am basically untouchable. Brennus has to go through Justi to attack me, but they hate each other now.
DoW immunity is nice, but I have no trading partner. Justi is teching amazingly fast and I never get anything to trade.
Brennus and vassals are slower, but now hate me and don't trade anything.

I'm dragged in two wars vs Brennus via def pact, but obviously never see anything from him.
In the second war he actually kills DeGaulle (Justi's vassal).

Now basically I have to deal with 2 monsters. Justi has 17 cities and Brennus something along that line.

I've teched to tanks and bombers and the board looks like this:



Empire. A lot of cottages don't mean . .. .. .. . vs their obscene immortal bonuses.





Demo. No comment:



On the bright side, Justi is still quite far away from space and culture. UN (built by Justi) obviously is irrelevant with the 2 powers hating each other.



I think I should retire now, because it really seems hopeless. But I'll try a desperate mass rushbuy of tanks and bombers. Power ratio vs Justi is 0.2 and he has mechanized infantry. First byzantine tanks running around my empire at 1758 :rolleyes:

Edit: the only available health resource is sugar from Justi, but he wants copper, iron, Al and something else. 4 resources.



 
to 1000AD Immortal - Normal speed

Spoiler :
Rushed Monte right off the bat with mass chopped axes, didn't want to get trapped by the crazy man and he has good land, took him out pretty quickly.
Crashed my economy (-ve at 0%) and Justin entered WHEOOHRN mode with a stack of swords and axes parked right on my border.
This forced me to devote hammers and maintenance towards an effective defense instead of letting me recover my economy. Eventually Justin dropped back out of WHEOOHRN, no idea why, maybe I got my army strength up high enough. Either way, as soon as he dropped out of WHEOOHRN and it looked like I had a shot at getting him pleased before he tried it again, I swapped to his religion .

Eventually got him to pleased which allowed me to relax, I kept trying to block off land to prevent him infiltrating my backlands, this had the effect of keeping me at 0% research for several thousand years

Bulbed philo, didn't get the religion but managed to trade it for a few techs to other civs.
Have 12 or so cities and room for a couple more, Justins capital culture is crushing me at the moment but I'm working on pushing him back. Will probably launch a cavalry/spy strike on him if I can reach cavalry first.
With a combination of his, montes and my land the rest of the AI won't be remotely a threat.
 
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