King of the World #12: Sitting Bull

Round 0: A Lonely Continent (4000 B.C.)
Round 1: Aztecs are Indians, too! (4000 B.C. - 2075 B.C.)
Round 2: Gambit! (2075 B.C. - 1025 B.C.)
Round 3: Conquest of the New World (1025 B.C. - 10 A.D.)
Round 4: Sneaking Bull (10 A.D. - 625 A.D.)
Round 5: Meet the Neighbors (625 A.D. - 860 A.D.)
Round 6: Wheelin' and Dealin' Bull (860 A.D. - 1130 A.D.)
Round 7: The Liberalism Race (1130 A.D. - 1240 A.D.)
Round 8: Party? Started. (1240 A.D. - 1415 A.D.)
Round 9: Prelude to Showdown (1415 A.D. - 1490 A.D.)
Round 10: Flippin' (1490 A.D. - 1590 A.D.)
Round 11: Siege and Breakout (1590 A.D. - 1695 A.D.)
Round 12: Fall of the House of Khmer (1695 A.D. - 1736 A.D.)
Round 13: The Tipping Point (1736 A.D. - 1786 A.D.)
Roud 14: Can't Make an Omelette... (1786 A.D. - 1812 A.D.)

Hello, all!

As you probably know by now, the King of the World series focuses on Earth maps, placing Civs in their historical locations, in contention with their historical rivals. Here, in King of the World 12, I'm stealing an idea from Churchill's Hat (say hello, CH!) and playing on a map that utilizes ONLY those Civs that didn't make it into Vanilla Civ IV. So we're looking at 16 BtS and Warlords Civilizations!

For our leader, we're going to be taking on the taciturn Sitting Bull:



And unlike all of our other Americas games to date, our intention isn't to turtle up and reach for the stars. We're gonna be belligerent jerks, sailing the high seas for European plunder and booty! Yep, we're finally gonna see some "Reverse Colonization," as I like to call it.

To make things somewhat more interesting, we're not going to smash our only neighbor Pacal's face in for a while (Even though he won't trade any techs with us until Optics). Heck, we even gave him a way into South America:



I didn't open up the Inca highlands, but that's marginal terrain, anyway. I also spread Hunting and Archery around to the AIs, though I didn't replace starting units with Archers. We're not going to be rushing anyone, anyway, so I think it's a moot point.

Also, after a particularly heated argument broke out in the pre-game thread, I decided that Europe was a little too crowded, and central Asia was... well, empty. So I decided to airlift the Ottomans from Ankara and deposit them in the middle of the arid Turanian Plain:



That's pretty crappy land, but Suleiman can Settler-spam all the live-long day before he has to worry about neighbors and, with the Immortal bonuses, I'm pretty sure he'll be fine. Or maybe he won't. One thing's for sure, he wasn't going to be a factor at all in Turkey. This also opens things up a little for Justinian and the gang.

So... enough about the rest of the world. Where do we start?



Right off the bat, I don't see any reason not to move 1N to grab the Deer and get the Plains Hill bonus. But, of course, the "where do we settle" question is always one of the most talked about, so have at it. Also, what should our early Builds/Tech path be? Should we go straight for Mysticism and Stonehenge? Or should we go for Hunting to get those Deer online and pump Settlers? Maybe go the Bronze Working route to get that Gold mined?

Again, things are kind of crazy for me until the end of May, so I don't know how regularly I'll be posting until then, but I figured I'd put up the start. Here's the save, for anyone who wants to play a shadow game:

Is it worth taking two turns and moving between the 2 corn tiles on the lake? I have had a city there when playing America and it is a nice site, plus Bully starts with Agriculture (IIRC) so you can go straight for more useful techs.

The second city can then go where the green cursor is on the coast, another great cottage city (if that is what floats you boat).

I'd move 2E 1SE; you lose two turns, but gain a killer bureau capital with tons of food, marble, and lots of riverside. It's short on production, but for getting some settlers/workers going it's great. Second city 1N of the starting position for some unit pumping. You could do it the other way around, but then you'll be moving your capital at some point anyway.

AndrewN said:

Is it worth taking two turns and moving between the 2 corn tiles on the lake? I have had a city there when playing America and it is a nice site, plus Bully starts with Agriculture (IIRC) so you can go straight for more useful techs.

The second city can then go where the green cursor is on the coast, another great cottage city (if that is what floats you boat).

Click to expand...

Wouldn't it take 3 turns to settle the site you mention? I think one turn 1N is fine.

Its almost worth making a city 1SE of Andrew's spot to make a GP farm (and to leverage SB's traits) - that city doesn't pick up the aluminum in Upper Michigan though.

As for starting position, I think Neal hit it on the head, 1N makes a good starting point. I would attempt to get a city founded in Mexico as soon as possible though to keep Pacal out of North America. Taking the stone could work but would it be too late for Stonehenge? Though a SH city there would keep Mutal choked and force Pacal south.

Other city spots, Houston and Mexico City are solid early game cities, as is Boston & "Washington". Those are all second phase though after blocking off Mexico and confining Maya to, well, Maya.

Thanks for throwing us a bone, Neal. We'll be chewing on the start site arguments all month!

I'm voting 1N to settle. Barbs will come early on immortal and there will be a freakin' continent-full of 'em. Don't need hunting to start, if the intention is to grab stonehenge for free totem poles it will be a while before you run low on food.

Tech: Mining>Mystic>Bronzeworking>hunting>fishing>pottery
Build: Worker>stonehenge>Dogs(whipped into henge)>settler
worker actions: farm corn>mine gold>chop forests>mine hills

Dog soldiers don't require copper, so you want to hit BW early. Once stonehenge is out, you just need one settler to send to the 2 corn site and that will become your settler pump, while the capital focuses on pumping dogs out to deal with the barbs.

In the medium term, maybe that 1N site isn't so bad as a bureaucracy capital? I count 8 riverside plains and enough food to cottage most of them. They may not be as nice as grass but with bureau at least you get 1.5 hammers from each in addition to the river commerce. You can wait to move the capital to louisiana in the midevil era once that city has worked up some towns.

I'd be tempted to settle 1SE of the deer. You would only lose 1 turn (same as 1N), and you'd have some grassland that you can farm. Keeps the gold, corn, deer, and adds iron to the mix. Bit lower production maybe, but no peaks. More forests to chop here as well if you'd like.


You do lose the marble, but you can make a second city to the SE to grab corn(s) and the marble there in time to make use of them for the marble wonders.

Either settle on place, or 1 N.

Settling on place allows for more city placing in general (other city can take the deer + iron in the north.

Settling 1N will allow for 4 usefull spots for your capital. I strongly urge you to not settle to the east. That spot is perfect for a second city, no need to place your capital there. Capital can be great prod city, east can be perfect gp city (second)

BarrageQueen said:

Wouldn't it take 3 turns to settle the site you mention? I think one turn 1N is fine.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I wasn't clear, 2 extra turns

My concern with 1N is it is a good enough city but doesn't look adequate for a capital.

2E looks good enough for me.

And this 3 weeks were quite short, right, mr Neal ?

It's a waste of capital to settle all those corns. While you're philosophical and setting up a GP farm is key for any game, the capital would still not be the best choice for that. Settle 1N, it's good for production and has sufficient food and can easily support your early expansion and production needs.

Second city should go to where Mexico City is to block off Pacal and claim what's one of the best production sites on the continent and then your third city between the two corns for all your GP farming needs (though it can support cottages on the side as well).

I still say settling 1N is problematic, but perhaps I'm missing something. Is the plains corn and plain/forest deer going to really give enough food to make that site workable? Every other tile is either food-neutral (plains after irrigating) or food-negative.

I'd still like to pitch my spot 1SE of the deer. Still get the deer and the corn for food and the gold, but there are also 4 grassland tiles you can irrigate right away. You'll have 3 hills and eventually iron for production as well. There would be 2 additional forests involved as well compared to the spot 1N.

That iron may be useful pretty quickly once the barbs start to settle cities. Your archers can certainly protect you, but having melee units will be preferred for attacking of course.

Dogs don't require Iron nor Copper for that matter so IW is not a priority at all.

1N is a 2 hammer capital spot. Imagining a size 5 capital it'll work the Corn and the Deer for 5 , 1 and 4 , 2 , respectively and have a surplus of 5 food. Those 5 food will be used to work the Gold, the Marble and possibly the plains forest for a total of 15 (if I counted right) per turn which in my book makes it a good city. Sure, it'll be a marginal city until Biology but it'll be able to crank out settlers and units at a good rate, while supporting the expansion with the gold.

Unless if you move to Chicago, every city in this spot will be pretty crappy. But it'll get some hammers. 1N seems fine. Then go settle Mexico, then Chicago, then fill up the rest as needed.

Let Pacal do nothing, maybe chop some jungles in S. America, and then invade at some point (probably rifles/cannons). Then go invade Europe and/or Asia with marines.

JFleme said:

Dogs don't require Iron nor Copper for that matter so IW is not a priority at all.

1N is a 2 hammer capital spot. Imagining a size 5 capital it'll work the Corn and the Deer for 5 , 1 and 4 , 2 , respectively and have a surplus of 5 food. Those 5 food will be used to work the Gold, the Marble and possibly the plains forest for a total of 15 (if I counted right) per turn which in my book makes it a good city. Sure, it'll be a marginal city until Biology but it'll be able to crank out settlers and units at a good rate, while supporting the expansion with the gold.

Click to expand...

Points taken. I always forget the Dog is resource-less and of course without jungle to get to quickly IW is a lower priority. Also can see where the hammers come in at size 5 with the extra hammers by settling on the hill and from the marble. It's also a bit more central of a capital I guess.

However, with my suggestion we would still get the same corn, the same deer and the same gold, but from there I think we would have more flexibility. With 4 grass tiles we can irrigate before CS, that's 8 more surplus food. The spot might be lower on hammers at size 5, but that extra food could mean the possibility to whip, perhaps a cottage or two for some extra early income, could run some early specialists, and later maybe some workshops as we're likely to utilize caste being philo. There is also still two plains hills that can be mined for good hammer production as well.

Eventually we will surely get IW, and that grassland iron will be a nice boost as well.

I'd vote 1N. It isn't as amazing a capitol as some other spots, but all the other spots lack severely in hammers.

I like 1N. You get the Plains / Hills Production bonus and you get gold, corn, marble and deer - among other resources. I will bring up more suggestions later, but I have to run shortly.

I have an idea to run by everybody and see who likes it:

Since Neal is playing Sitting Bull, the Native Americans, how about naming the cities after tribes who lived near the area? So the 1N crew is calling for a capital city named Crow or Blackfoot.

re: Multicorn- I think, with the Immortal happiness limits, combined with the paucity of resources in the Americas and the likelihood that won't see a religion before Confucianism, that a capital that ropes in more than one Corn at the expense of production would be wasteful. This isn't to say that a food rich "St. Louis" isn't in the cards (get it? St. Louis? Cards? Never mind), but it should wait until we have an empire capable of supporting it. Then again, those tiles would be awfully useful for a pure Settler/Worker pump.

re: Stonehenge- Well, we're not likely to get a religion, and Totem Poles give us a significant military advantage on top of their Cultural benefits, but would spending that many hammers that early in the game really work to our advantage? We'd almost have to wait until after Stonehenge to get a second city out, f'r instance...

re: The hiatus- I'm still kinda-sorta on it. The big thing is that I'll be out of the country from the 19th to the 26th, so there'll definitely be no posting then. I'm debating whether I want to squeeze Round 1 in before I take off...

re: Mexico City- Could we really beat Pacal to that? I would imagine that would be the Maya's primo #2 city spot... We definitely couldn't do it and Stonehenge.

re: 1 SE of Deer- It's a decent spot. My only problem with it is that that takes us even farther away from Pacal, and if we're gonna hem him in and force him to tackle the Amazon, we should be thinking south, not north.

One side, MAJOR production.

The other side, MAJOR food.



Your gonna hate this game Neal!

Maybe tighten your cities in the plains and mountains as much as possible...?

Either way:

I say 2N 2E. 2 Corn, Iron, Deer, Aluminum (like that matters ). There are also riverside plains and grasslands, great for food or production (farms or windmills). The major thing though is the balance of production and food (at least in the early game which matters the most). Food, no explanation necessary! Production might need some though. Granted there are no hills, there is iron and tons of forests. In the later game, you can windmill the riversides and workshop the plains.

I think you're going to have a hard time keeping Pacal out of Mexico on second thought.

Edit: Yeah, forget Mexico. There's no way you're going to beat him to it. However, you can settle Houston/NO if you want to block, or Chicago to pump settlers. There are always dogs you can call on to take Mexico City if you really must have it.