Kulbara
Chieftain
Obligatory Introduction Thingy
Hello all. I've been lurking around for about a week now, doing my best to inhale all the strategy goodness and playing a few games while at it. =P Just in case it becomes relevant, I own Warlords and BtS. I'm not entirely new to Civ; I've played CivII a while, but a long time ago. My last prince game was a great victory in my humble opinion, so I tried being DANGEROUS and going straight to monarch. So far it's going very well. ^^
What is the meaning of this?
I've tossed the advantages and dis-advantages of a CE vs. SE in my head at great length, resulting in some conclusions and questions for all the strategists here to (hopefully xD) look at.
Alright, basically I contend that a good way to look at specialists is that they in function replace what the science/gold sliders do; how many specialists are run decides to what extent the sliders are replaced. Early game, cottages/hamlets are about even in value with the amount of specialists being run. Once hamlets grow into villages and eventually towns they are more valuable than base specialists; conversely, if representation is run, specialists gain early advantage. Towns do eventually become 1-2 commerce more valuable than even a representation specialist, and the tiles it would take to support them... However one musn't count out the GPP specialists produce.
All things considered, specialists vs. cottages can produce nearly the same net results, and either is a viable strategy, depending on your leader and civ's UB. (Financial obviously will want cottages in most cases; philosophical will probably want an SE) It's like I said in the first place: specialists as far as I can tell replace the function of sliders. Scientists replace the science slider. Merchants replace the gold slider. Spies replace the espionage slider. Artists replace the culture slider....
Wait... Do they really?!?
Remember Entertainers from CivII?
The culture slider produces something that no other slider or specialist can: Happy Faces! Certain buildings make happy people for every increase in the culture slider, and most of said buildings are fairly cheap, especially the theatre. In addition, every addition to the culture slider will pop your new city borders faster than a 15-something pops zits, and will help maintain your already existing cities' culture equilibrium with any neighboring cities that might be near. The greatest advantage possible of this, however, would be... Seeing as how scientists/merchants/spies replace the science/gold/espionage sliders, and can hold their own with cottages in most cases, and produce GPP... one could really run 0% in all the sliders except culture quite easily. Furthermore, the culture slider doesn't require ANY commerce to be worked in your civilization for it to give it's culture and (more importantly) happiness benefits. Basically, if you run a CE, running the culture slider is going to take away from your teching and funding. Running a pure-SE makes the culture slider free, and with few drawbacks, afaik.
And that would be the point of an anti-cottage economy, or an ACE. The general gist of it would be to build as few cottages as possible, so that one relies very little if at all on any of the sliders save culture. Theatres at the least would be required for any benefit, yes... but they're dirt cheap and add +1 happiness for every 10% culture alone. That's easily +9-10 happiness for every city without much work. Think off all the luxury resources you could trade away for cash? Think of how much longer you could deal with war weariness whilst smacking ghandi? And that's not even adding in the effects of coliseums and later, broadcast towers.
Qualifiers, Thoughts, and More Text Wall
I know that representation really helps specialists keep up with cottages/towns, especially late-game. Early-game, it propels an SE to almost overpowered levels with the pyramids, imo. It's not a bad civic at all, and nothing in the government civic column completely outdoes it. Representation is great for any SE, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's vital, especially if one is running caste system.
The thing is, in order for specialists to keep up with a CE, (especially without rep.) you need a lot of them. Just running specialists off buildings might be enough for a while, but when cottages finally DO become towns, I really think one would need the unlimited specialists that caste system provides in order to compete. The main disadvantages to this would be the inability to run the shiny civic of slavery... But... I propose the specialists provided by buildings actually would be enough for early game, until cottages mature and C.S becomes more necessary. This means everybody gets their precious whip for early game, which is mostly when whipping is used anyways. The other possible civic complication to this mess would be once other civs start running emancipation. It's mostly a moot point though... The culture slider will probably be able to devour the unhappiness caused by lack of emancipation easily. (nothing like distracting unhappy people with theatre plays and a savage bloodletting at the coliseum! ^^ )
To run such a specialist-heavy economy, and to put as little commerce into the sliders as possible, I literally wouldn't build a single cottage. Farm as much as possible, and build mines/workshops/mills/preserves everywhere else. Another couple hidden advantages to farming everything would be that your populations grows back crazy fast for whipping, and also that farms are easier to rebuild than towns in the case of pillage. (although this is less of an issue in BtS..)
In Conclusion
Unless I'm missing something, or somebody is financial, (and even then, it's only a bit more commerce...) why would you build a single cottage? D: By not doing so, you're essentially letting the culture slider produce 10+ happiness nationwide, for virtually free. This is how I played my last prince game which, without sounding arrogant, was too easy. I'm doing this on a monarch game now, and so far so good. I'm in 1st place on the score list, am out-teching everybody, conquering, and foresee nothing that is going to imminently destroy me (and that's saying a lot considering Montezuma is next door. ) Of course I'm playing as the romans with Augustus, but it IS my first monarch game after all. ^^;
Any thoughts?
Hello all. I've been lurking around for about a week now, doing my best to inhale all the strategy goodness and playing a few games while at it. =P Just in case it becomes relevant, I own Warlords and BtS. I'm not entirely new to Civ; I've played CivII a while, but a long time ago. My last prince game was a great victory in my humble opinion, so I tried being DANGEROUS and going straight to monarch. So far it's going very well. ^^
What is the meaning of this?
I've tossed the advantages and dis-advantages of a CE vs. SE in my head at great length, resulting in some conclusions and questions for all the strategists here to (hopefully xD) look at.
Alright, basically I contend that a good way to look at specialists is that they in function replace what the science/gold sliders do; how many specialists are run decides to what extent the sliders are replaced. Early game, cottages/hamlets are about even in value with the amount of specialists being run. Once hamlets grow into villages and eventually towns they are more valuable than base specialists; conversely, if representation is run, specialists gain early advantage. Towns do eventually become 1-2 commerce more valuable than even a representation specialist, and the tiles it would take to support them... However one musn't count out the GPP specialists produce.
All things considered, specialists vs. cottages can produce nearly the same net results, and either is a viable strategy, depending on your leader and civ's UB. (Financial obviously will want cottages in most cases; philosophical will probably want an SE) It's like I said in the first place: specialists as far as I can tell replace the function of sliders. Scientists replace the science slider. Merchants replace the gold slider. Spies replace the espionage slider. Artists replace the culture slider....
Wait... Do they really?!?
Remember Entertainers from CivII?
The culture slider produces something that no other slider or specialist can: Happy Faces! Certain buildings make happy people for every increase in the culture slider, and most of said buildings are fairly cheap, especially the theatre. In addition, every addition to the culture slider will pop your new city borders faster than a 15-something pops zits, and will help maintain your already existing cities' culture equilibrium with any neighboring cities that might be near. The greatest advantage possible of this, however, would be... Seeing as how scientists/merchants/spies replace the science/gold/espionage sliders, and can hold their own with cottages in most cases, and produce GPP... one could really run 0% in all the sliders except culture quite easily. Furthermore, the culture slider doesn't require ANY commerce to be worked in your civilization for it to give it's culture and (more importantly) happiness benefits. Basically, if you run a CE, running the culture slider is going to take away from your teching and funding. Running a pure-SE makes the culture slider free, and with few drawbacks, afaik.
And that would be the point of an anti-cottage economy, or an ACE. The general gist of it would be to build as few cottages as possible, so that one relies very little if at all on any of the sliders save culture. Theatres at the least would be required for any benefit, yes... but they're dirt cheap and add +1 happiness for every 10% culture alone. That's easily +9-10 happiness for every city without much work. Think off all the luxury resources you could trade away for cash? Think of how much longer you could deal with war weariness whilst smacking ghandi? And that's not even adding in the effects of coliseums and later, broadcast towers.
Qualifiers, Thoughts, and More Text Wall
I know that representation really helps specialists keep up with cottages/towns, especially late-game. Early-game, it propels an SE to almost overpowered levels with the pyramids, imo. It's not a bad civic at all, and nothing in the government civic column completely outdoes it. Representation is great for any SE, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's vital, especially if one is running caste system.
The thing is, in order for specialists to keep up with a CE, (especially without rep.) you need a lot of them. Just running specialists off buildings might be enough for a while, but when cottages finally DO become towns, I really think one would need the unlimited specialists that caste system provides in order to compete. The main disadvantages to this would be the inability to run the shiny civic of slavery... But... I propose the specialists provided by buildings actually would be enough for early game, until cottages mature and C.S becomes more necessary. This means everybody gets their precious whip for early game, which is mostly when whipping is used anyways. The other possible civic complication to this mess would be once other civs start running emancipation. It's mostly a moot point though... The culture slider will probably be able to devour the unhappiness caused by lack of emancipation easily. (nothing like distracting unhappy people with theatre plays and a savage bloodletting at the coliseum! ^^ )
To run such a specialist-heavy economy, and to put as little commerce into the sliders as possible, I literally wouldn't build a single cottage. Farm as much as possible, and build mines/workshops/mills/preserves everywhere else. Another couple hidden advantages to farming everything would be that your populations grows back crazy fast for whipping, and also that farms are easier to rebuild than towns in the case of pillage. (although this is less of an issue in BtS..)
In Conclusion
Unless I'm missing something, or somebody is financial, (and even then, it's only a bit more commerce...) why would you build a single cottage? D: By not doing so, you're essentially letting the culture slider produce 10+ happiness nationwide, for virtually free. This is how I played my last prince game which, without sounding arrogant, was too easy. I'm doing this on a monarch game now, and so far so good. I'm in 1st place on the score list, am out-teching everybody, conquering, and foresee nothing that is going to imminently destroy me (and that's saying a lot considering Montezuma is next door. ) Of course I'm playing as the romans with Augustus, but it IS my first monarch game after all. ^^;
Any thoughts?