My Modding Philosophy

timerover51

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My Modding Philosophy

Since I have on occasion caught a fair amount of flak for modifying the game, I thought that I would lay out my game modification philosophy and techniques, and invite comment on them. I am not by any means saying that this is the only correct way to modify the game, nor even saying that it is a good way to modify the game, I am only saying that this is why and how I do it. I started playing the basic game on an IMac in 2002, and did not exactly enjoy it, and the editor that I had was possibly the most unstable piece of Macintosh software I have ever dealt with. After buying Civilization 3 Complete for the Macintosh, I also purchased the version for Windows, and experimented with the Windows editor on my son’s school laptop. As a consequence of that experience, I purchased an inexpensive Windows box from my son’s high school to use for editing the Civilization 3 Complete game. Because of problems with the different way the Windows and Macintosh OS handle graphics and files, I have pretty much limited any changes to the game to strictly what can be done in the editor. I freely admit my indebtedness to TETurkhan for many of my game editing ideas.

My objective when modifying any game, be it computer, board, or miniature war game, is to produce something that I enjoy playing and that still represents a challenge. I am not that worried about play balance, feeling that when playing against the computer, play balance is not an issue. Human players are a different story.

With respect to Civilization 3 Complete, to produce a game that I enjoy playing that is not easy to win, I have four objectives.

1. Speed up the play of the game, through boosting resource and terrain yields, and technology advancement.
2. Reduce the affects of the corruption and pollution models.
3. Correct some of the historical inaccuracies of the game.
4. Modify, within the limits of the combat system, the unit combat ratings so as to allow higher technologically advanced units to gain a bigger benefit from the technology advancement.

1. In pursuit of my first objective, speeding up the play of the game, I have boosted the terrain yields of some of the tiles, principally the water ones (Coast, Sea, and Ocean), and increased the yields of all of the resources. The increases are not as drastic as some of those in TETurkhan’s Test of Time scenario, but they are sufficient to definitely speed up game play. I have the harbor, coastal fortress, commercial dock, and offshore platforms all set to increase trade, shields, and food in water, partly to offset the inability of the editor to increase land tile food yields beyond irrigating and roading. Some of the Wonders now increase trade, and in some cases, other values as well, along with placing a Wonder-appropriate building in every city. No Wonders go obsolete. To speed research up, the following Wonders all yield 2 free advances when built: The Great Library, Newton’s University, the Theory of Evolution, and the Internet. Some Wonders now produce units on a periodic basis, and some produce leaders. The cumulative overall affects of the changes is that a well-located city, size limited to 16 to 21, produces all but the most expensive units in a single turn, and the most expensive units within 3 turns, assuming that accelerated production is selected. Research times are normally 4 turns, the minimum possible. The game moves much faster.

2. The corruption and pollution models have always seemed to me to be more than a bit overdone. I have attacked the corruption problem in two ways. First, a number of buildings, in addition to the courthouse and police station, act to reduce corruption. Second, a number of buildings, in addition to Wonders, produce Happy Faces, increasing the level of citizen satisfaction. Increasing the citizen’s happiness results in “We Love the King” days, which also reduce corruption. Combining the two results in a corruption level that is not excessive.
The pollution model is also attacked two ways. First, I have some buildings set to produce negative levels of pollution, which does greatly assist in controlling it, although it does mean that I have to build those buildings. Second, I have changed the town and city size settings so that I can achieve high levels of production without having to go to the Metropolis, thereby avoiding the problem of population pollution. I have also reduced the number of worker turns required to clean up pollution. Note, I have not reduced the worker turns to 1, as I do wish pollution to continue to be a problem for the AI.

3. With respect to correcting historical inaccuracies, that is an ongoing process as I encounter them. My one venture into adding a unit has been to give the Carthaginians the War Elephant as their unique unit, available with Horseback Riding. The Numidian mercenaries used by Carthage were actually light cavalry, with the heavy infantry spearmen coming from Carthage’s Spanish holdings. Curraghs now carry two passengers, which is about right in comparison to the galley. Berserkers now appear with Feudalism, and longbowmen with Engineering. I have increased the defensive bonuses of town, cities, metropolis, fortresses, and rivers, although not a much as I should have based on expected ammunition expenditures against various levels of fortification contained in some of my post World War 2 technical manuals. Taking a city should be difficult, but not impossible. Note, the AI gets the same benefits on defense, as I experience every time I attack a city. I loose tanks to spearmen in cities on a regular basis, which is about right. Mechanized Operations in Urban Terrain (MOUT) are just about the most hazardous type of operation possible for armored units.

4. Last, but not least, the modification of unit combat ratings is also an ongoing process or trial and error. I am a military and naval historian, with a large personal library of books covering military history and science from the time of the Sumerians to present day. I use that constantly, checking to see what anticipated average results should be verses what the game is producing. I also run tests using various miniature and board game units and rules that I view as reliable indicators of what should be happening and compare it to the game. I think that eventually, I will have a satisfactory set, but when that will occur, I have no idea. Much of my gaming is done on my Macintosh iBook laptop, as I need to keep my legs and feet elevated because of a disability which I incurred while serving in the US Army. My editing is done on the Windows desktop, so it is a matter of producing the edited biq file, moving it to my laptop, and then playing enough games to test the changes, noting what is working and what is not, and then going back to the Windows box. All this takes time.

The result of all of this is that I now have a game that I enjoy playing and find quite challenging. As the AI has full access to all of my changes as well, on a regular basis, I find my changes biting the hand that made them. That is part of the game challenge, beating my own creation.
 
No, timerover51 has taken his hits here in the General forum, so it makes sense for him to explain himself here.
 
@timerover51: what is your normal/usual victory condition that you try to achieve? It looks like you could regulary launch a spaceship in the 1600s without half trying.
 
No, timerover51 has taken his hits here in the General forum, so it makes sense for him to explain himself here.
I'm with CB on this one. I don't go down into C&C much, but I doubt he caught nearly as much flak there for modding as he did here in General Discussions. Seems like this is the place to discuss it.
 
@timerover51: what is your normal/usual victory condition that you try to achieve? It looks like you could regulary launch a spaceship in the 1600s without half trying.

Normally, I prefer a Space Ship Launch, which is readily achievable now. The is especially the case when I am playing on a huge map with only a few opponents. There, achieving a domination or conquest victory is a lot harder, so I probably will spend more time working on winning that way. I do not allow for either culture or Wonder victories, and normally disable diplomatic victory as well.

Presently, I am doing a lot of playing on my modified Swargey's Archipelago map, which is standard, 100 x 100, size, with 5 opponents. In both of my present games, one as Netherlands and one as the Vikings, I have gotten into major wars with my neighbors, which is diverting my attention from building to fighting. A lot of my changes are of the two-sided sword variety, and I am struggling in both games to contain what could be a runaway AI, the Egyptians on the one and the Aztecs on the other. Given the configuration of the map, I have to do a lot of island-hopping, and with the limited transport ability of caravels and galleys, it takes time. While I am doing this, I have Rome on one map and China on the other steadily expanding. I may have to take the Space Ship victory as a back-up win in these cases.

On the huge Ptolemy map, I have launched the Space Ship, more as a formality as I had built it, but I am continuing to play that map to get further information for my unit combat rating changes.
 
My personal point of view is that, if anyone wants to modify the game to improve their own pleasure in playing it, by all means, they should do so! The only caveat being that such a heavily modified game cannot be used here in any competitive or team game, such as HOF, or succession games.

The other point is that when we provide help for players here, we always assume it is the standard game, as delivered (and patched) by Firaxis. Most of the posters here, both the helpers and the helped, don't fully comprehend all the nuances that a modified game can produce. It's hard enough, sometimes, to figure out how to help somebody with an off-the-wall problem, without having to figure out how the various mods he's done could have affected things.
 
My personal point of view is that, if anyone wants to modify the game to improve their own pleasure in playing it, by all means, they should do so! The only caveat being that such a heavily modified game cannot be used here in any competitive or team game, such as HOF, or succession games.

Following up on your point about modified game use, Padma, I have been thinking about posting a couple of my mods as challenge games for the individuals who mainly or solely play the standard game to try, with the possibility of a prize to the most successful. As for HoF games, the game's internal Hall of Fame does not recognize modified games. The one scenario that I like to play unmodified is the Age of Discovery, where I have won as the English, but still need to win as the Dutch.

The other point is that when we provide help for players here, we always assume it is the standard game, as delivered (and patched) by Firaxis. Most of the posters here, both the helpers and the helped, don't fully comprehend all the nuances that a modified game can produce. It's hard enough, sometimes, to figure out how to help somebody with an off-the-wall problem, without having to figure out how the various mods he's done could have affected things.

The one time I solicited advice, on whether to occupy or raze a newly-captured city, I tried to give information on all of my modifications that would influence the decision.

Most of the posters here, both the helpers and the helped, don't fully comprehend all the nuances that a modified game can produce.

As someone who modifies the game, I find myself on a regular basis being hit with a result that I did not expect when modifying the game. Given the time duration of the game, and the number of civilizations and other variables, it takes a while to determine what any individual change will do.
 
Following up on your point about modified game use, Padma, I have been thinking about posting a couple of my mods as challenge games for the individuals who mainly or solely play the standard game to try, with the possibility of a prize to the most successful.

This would certainly be a possibility. Similar things are often done with standard games: "Here's a cool map I just played, and got beat up on. Anyone game to try it?" I don't see why a specific mod would be any different.

I should have included the thought that when all participants agree to the same modified rules, it would be allowable. After all, aren't the common variations (Always War, X-City Challenge, etc.) little more than self-imposed rules variations? :)
 
My Modding Philosophy
4. Last, but not least, the modification of unit combat ratings is also an ongoing process or trial and error. I am a military and naval historian, with a large personal library of books covering military history and science from the time of the Sumerians to present day. I use that constantly, checking to see what anticipated average results should be verses what the game is producing.

The result of all of this is that I now have a game that I enjoy playing and find quite challenging. As the AI has full access to all of my changes as well, on a regular basis, I find my changes biting the hand that made them. That is part of the game challenge, beating my own creation.

So, do you make use of Col. Dupuy's work when looking for the anticipated results? I've only seen it in a half dozen articles or so & don't necessarily have a full grasp of how it works. But in principle, it ought to allow you to pop out unit values with considerable success.

IMHO, it's good that you have a challenging time beating your own work--if you didn't, one might suspect some hanky-panky ;)

Aside: haven't forgotten your note, simply haven't been able to figure out any reason for your results vs. mine, especially when you use no mods. . . .

kk
 
Following up on your point about modified game use, Padma, I have been thinking about posting a couple of my mods as challenge games for the individuals who mainly or solely play the standard game to try, with the possibility of a prize to the most successful. As for HoF games, the game's internal Hall of Fame does not recognize modified games. The one scenario that I like to play unmodified is the Age of Discovery, where I have won as the English, but still need to win as the Dutch.

You should post your mods timerover51, I love historical "what ifs" and it seems like you're a history buff. Share your favourite personal mods, I don't care if it goes into the HoF I'd post my results right into the thread...
 
So, do you make use of Col. Dupuy's work when looking for the anticipated results? I've only seen it in a half dozen articles or so & don't necessarily have a full grasp of how it works. But in principle, it ought to allow you to pop out unit values with considerable success.

IMHO, it's good that you have a challenging time beating your own work--if you didn't, one might suspect some hanky-panky ;)

Aside: haven't forgotten your note, simply haven't been able to figure out any reason for your results vs. mine, especially when you use no mods. . . .

kk

Hmm, Snarkhunter, since you know of Dupuy's work, are you also in the trade? I have studied his work a fair bit, and in my view, it works best with infantry weapons, firearms primarily, but starts having problems with artillery, armor, and most definitely aircraft, and does not consider ships at all. I generally simply play around with combat ratings until I get something the feels right from the historical standpoint, based on my reading and study. I have a personal library of about 3,000 books that I use to work from, not counting a couple of filing cabinets of photocopies from the National Archives and other places. The limitations within the combat system are a bit irritating, but that goes with the game business. The easiest ones to modify are the miniature games, next easiest is board games, and the hardest to modify are computer games, as much of what I would like to work with is hard-coded.


da3dalus: You should post your mods timerover51, I love historical "what ifs" and it seems like you're a history buff. Share your favourite personal mods, I don't care if it goes into the HoF I'd post my results right into the thread...

Let me look over some of them, and I will see about posting a couple. Since you like Seafaring civilizations, I was thinking about posting one of my naval mods for you to look at. Would you like one of my full-fledged mods with all my normal changes, or a more limited one, with changes focused mainly on the naval units, resources, and terrain?
 
Hmm, Snarkhunter, since you know of Dupuy's work, are you also in the trade? I have studied his work a fair bit, and in my view, it works best with infantry weapons, firearms primarily, but starts having problems with artillery, armor, and most definitely aircraft, and does not consider ships at all. I generally simply play around with combat ratings until I get something the feels right from the historical standpoint, based on my reading and study. I have a personal library of about 3,000 books that I use to work from, not counting a couple of filing cabinets of photocopies from the National Archives and other places. . . .

Not actually. I was an Army Brat for 20 years & sneaked a lot of peeks at my father's journals when I was younger; I also got the run of the Pentagon library one summer when I worked for the Air Force. I got fascinated by issues of command and control, organization, & small unit dynamics & have a very modest library of WWII eastern front material, also stuff like Rommel's Infantry Attacks!, Keegan's The Face of Battle, Gudmondson's On Infantry, etc. I first found Dupuy mentioned in S&T back in the late '70s & kept my eye opened for the odd article thereafter. But I never really decided to become a professional historian, though I minored in it in grad school. Dupuy's work always struck me as a good starting point, but I never knew enough to decide how you would extend/correct it & was not sure if I would ever want to use it to design a game.

The latest project I've tackled has been to try to figure out how many PzIII/IV the Germans could have had online in '41 had they not produced StuGs & gotten really serious about ramping up production, then figuring out a better ToE for the panzer divisions instead of splitting them in two, changing the GMT Barbarossa wargames to use 2 kampfgruppen instead of the pz/inf regiments, & seeing how much more/less effective the assault would have gone over the whole front. Entertaining, but I've gone as far as I can go without really detailed production stats which I can't seem to find online. Some, but not all.

And that sort of modding isn't really workable for C3 :) For it, I think I'd want to concentrate on the overall historical feel rather than the specifics of the military subsystem. I've stayed away from modding, precisely because I sense it could eat up a lot of time that I wouldn't really have to devote to it. But I like to read about what others manage with the game.

kk
 
Let me look over some of them, and I will see about posting a couple. Since you like Seafaring civilizations, I was thinking about posting one of my naval mods for you to look at. Would you like one of my full-fledged mods with all my normal changes, or a more limited one, with changes focused mainly on the naval units, resources, and terrain?

Throw one of your full naval mods at me, I wouldn't shy away from significant rule changes, only makes things more interesting and god knows we've all played the standard ruleset plenty. :)
 
The latest project I've tackled has been to try to figure out how many PzIII/IV the Germans could have had online in '41 had they not produced StuGs & gotten really serious about ramping up production, then figuring out a better ToE for the panzer divisions instead of splitting them in two, changing the GMT Barbarossa wargames to use 2 kampfgruppen instead of the pz/inf regiments, & seeing how much more/less effective the assault would have gone over the whole front. Entertaining, but I've gone as far as I can go without really detailed production stats which I can't seem to find online. Some, but not all.

kk

I have all of the books that you mentioned, and worked with Bruce Gudmondson during the First Gulf War in 1991, when I was working for the Marine Corps as a consultant on various combat-related projects. Despite my disability, the Marines nearly put me back on active duty with them.

I have the data you need on production in my library. Let me see if I can did it out for you and let you have it. However, remember that the Pzkw III had about reached the end of its useful life given the limitations on upgunning, and I might have to look at ball bearing production too for the turret runners. Given the simpler hull with the fixed gun mounting, you could produce more assault guns with a given amount of materials and time than straight tanks. Something is jogging around in my memory that the trade off is 3 assault guns for 2 tanks, but I cannot remember where I read that. It might be in Guderian's Panzer Leader.


da3dalusThrow one of your full naval mods at me, I wouldn't shy away from significant rule changes, only makes things more interesting and god knows we've all played the standard ruleset plenty

Okay, I will do so, but I will also write up a set of guidelines for the changes so you are not approaching it blind. Full naval mod with all other changes coming up.
 
da3dalus, per your request, I have worked up a full naval mod for Conquests, but I need to tweak it a bit so as to allow for random map generation. However, the attached PDF file gives a fairly good outline of the changes that I have made, and what to look for. I will post the finished version in the Creation and Customization Forum for downloading there. I would be interested in any feedback that you wish to provide. If requested, I will create a similar modification for both the basic Civilization 3 game and the Play the World version.
 

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I have all of the books that you mentioned, and worked with Bruce Gudmondson during the First Gulf War in 1991, when I was working for the Marine Corps as a consultant on various combat-related projects. Despite my disability, the Marines nearly put me back on active duty with them.

I have the data you need on production in my library. Let me see if I can did it out for you and let you have it. However, remember that the Pzkw III had about reached the end of its useful life given the limitations on upgunning, and I might have to look at ball bearing production too for the turret runners. Given the simpler hull with the fixed gun mounting, you could produce more assault guns with a given amount of materials and time than straight tanks. Something is jogging around in my memory that the trade off is 3 assault guns for 2 tanks, but I cannot remember where I read that. It might be in Guderian's Panzer Leader.

Gudmondson's take on things is certainly interesting; I'm not quite sure how much of it (overall) I believe, especially his predictions of the future, but things do seem to be moving more or less in the direction he thought.

I had discovered an old book when I was at IU that had extremely complete production stats, including production of raw materials & even things like locomotives, etc. It had to have been compiled shortly after WWII. It was in German but at the time I could read German pretty well. I know I photocopied a lot of pages out of it; unaccountably they are missing all these years later. Just knowing the names of reference works would be a great help; I can always snoop the Library of Congress (assuming some rascal hasn't stolen what I want!) if I get motivated enough. Any info you can provide, I would appreciate.

The mark III still had one trick up its sleeve, the L60/50. Both mark III and IV had been designed from the get-go to allow for up-gunning & this seems to have been accomplished with little difficulty; e.g., the decision to upgun the IV came in August 41 & the first prototypes rolled out in March 42, IIRC. One of my assumptions is that the Germans could have reflected on the French tanks they encountered in 40 & made the same decision a year earlier, allowing for a couple of battalions worth of L42/75 armed IVs to arrive for Barbarossa. Hardly significant, but some extra punch for a couple of divisions that summer. The mark IIIs would still have a problem w/ T34s, even with the long gun, but they'd have a chance at close range & certainly from the side or rear. But considering how the Germans rolled through Russia in 41, they probably could have used cardboard cutouts & gone just as far :)

And I see that this has wandered pretty far afield from CivIII! Perhaps we should continue via private mail.

kk
 
da3dalus, per your request, I have worked up a full naval mod for Conquests, but I need to tweak it a bit so as to allow for random map generation. However, the attached PDF file gives a fairly good outline of the changes that I have made, and what to look for. I will post the finished version in the Creation and Customization Forum for downloading there. I would be interested in any feedback that you wish to provide. If requested, I will create a similar modification for both the basic Civilization 3 game and the Play the World version.

Sounds really interesting man, I'll give it a run for sure, probably tomorrow night and over the weekend. Thanks for posting it, I'll give you my feedback once I've tried it out.

I like how you've modified the game to favour coastal cities. IMO this is more reflective of reality, because most of the powerful nations/civilizations in history had access to the sea.
 
And I see that this has wandered pretty far afield from CivIII! Perhaps we should continue via private mail.

kk

Or, if you wish, you can take it to our World History forum, as others (like myself) may find it interesting, as well. :)
 
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