"Surely, you must be joking" for Capitulation?

TheMeInTeam · Jun 25, 2009

From immortal U (the 2nd Sury one, as of this post current), spoilered in case you're playing that since it's late-game.

Spoiler :

What? I've seen this once or twice before, but WHY does this message appear in reference to capitulation? Nations far, far stronger than this asp-hat just ate it and became my vassals. In fact, one of my vassals wound up grabbing 3 of his cities while I only got 1 (he was a former vassal of my target until he broke free). I capped his MASTER, and his master's other vassal. He was either the weakest or possibly 2nd/3rd weakest civ on the planet...and my power was so huge by itself that I probably had over 6x this idiot's power.

He was well below average power obviously, but then again this isn't that accursed "we're doing fine on our own" BS routine by the AI. It's something nonsensical instead. Why am I joking? Is it because you're already bending over too far, AI?

Anyway, I won the game easily of course, but this made it annoying to finish domination so I took UN...hardly a big deal in a game where you have over 300 industrial units but still. I'm curious as the mechanics of this nonsense ---> since when did utterly bent over AIs just decide they don't wanna cap?

Tatran · Jun 25, 2009

De Gaulle can't vassalize himself to another civ?

See this SG thread by Mutineer,
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=213061&page=6

Volapyk · Jun 25, 2009

I have seen it a few time before, and though I have in no way looked into the code behind it. The pattern suggest it happens when you are so powerful compared to them they know they will never get free, usually you can solve it by just taking a few more of their cities.

EmperorFool · Jun 25, 2009

It looks like he thinks he's doing better in the war than you are. This check is performed if the power check hasn't denied you already:

Code:

if (AI_getWarSuccess(eTeam) + 4 * GC.getDefineINT("WAR_SUCCESS_CITY_CAPTURING") > GET_TEAM(eTeam).AI_getWarSuccess(getID()))
{
	return DENIAL_JOKING;
}

WAR_SUCCESS_CITY_CAPTURING is 10 by default. The war success numbers just add up the wins and losses of units and cities.

WAR_SUCCESS_DEFENDING: 3
WAR_SUCCESS_ATTACKING: 4
WAR_SUCCESS_UNIT_CAPTURING: 1 (Workers/Settlers)
WAR_SUCCESS_CITY_CAPTURING: 10

So yes, the solution is to take more cities. If you both start out at 0, you can see that it takes 40 success points assuming you win every battle and lose no cities. All losses must be offset by equal gains.

TheMeInTeam · Jun 25, 2009

Tatran said:
De Gaulle can't vassalize himself to another civ?

See this SG thread by Mutineer,
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=213061&page=6

No...I'm so strong the one remaining free civ in the game would fail a DoW check on me due to my power, so there's no way it would join in.

It looks like he thinks he's doing better in the war than you are. This check is performed if the power check hasn't denied you already:

Code:

if (AI_getWarSuccess(eTeam) + 4 * GC.getDefineINT("WAR_SUCCESS_CITY_CAPTURING") > GET_TEAM(eTeam).AI_getWarSuccess(getID()))
{
return DENIAL_JOKING;
}

WAR_SUCCESS_CITY_CAPTURING is 10 by default. The war success numbers just add up the wins and losses of units and cities.

WAR_SUCCESS_DEFENDING: 3
WAR_SUCCESS_ATTACKING: 4
WAR_SUCCESS_UNIT_CAPTURING: 1 (Workers/Settlers)
WAR_SUCCESS_CITY_CAPTURING: 10

So yes, the solution is to take more cities. If you both start out at 0, you can see that it takes 40 success points assuming you win every battle and lose no cities. All losses must be offset by equal gains.

Looks like once again the vassal mechanics fail. My own WS was probably under 40, because I only captured 1 city (I certainly had the lead, but not by much there).

My vassals captured 3 cities however, which is why I could only take one.

blitzkrieg1980 · Jun 25, 2009

This happened to me in my last game. It has to be the 40 points check system. I took 2 more cities, and he was happy to capitulate.

theskibum · Jun 25, 2009

@ TMIT

Could...no should you not have just pounded him into oblivion?? Surely it couldn't have taken that much longer? :goodjob:

TheMeInTeam · Jun 25, 2009

theskibum said:
@ TMIT

Could...no should you not have just pounded him into oblivion?? Surely it couldn't have taken that much longer?

Than a UN resolution a couple turns later? Nah. I was still at war when I won. I didn't have any navy at all so I just said hell with it.

shyuhe · Jun 25, 2009

So if I understand the function calls correctly, shouldn't damage that your vassal inflicts on the enemy count towards the capitulation calculation? Or do they not count as part of your team for this calculation?

TheMeInTeam · Jun 25, 2009

shyuhe said:
So if I understand the function calls correctly, shouldn't damage that your vassal inflicts on the enemy count towards the capitulation calculation? Or do they not count as part of your team for this calculation?

They don't. If they did he would have capped.

AFAIK vassals matter very little for wartime decisions unless they border your target and pass the "land target" threshold, after which even if they're otherwise useless their effect is pronounced.

madscientist · Jun 25, 2009

MIT, this was an issue in the Julius Caesar RPC. I never got a good reason why, but it's happened before.

r_rolo1 · Jun 25, 2009

So, let me see....

If TMIT had simply used 2 or 3 tacs and killed 15 units , he would be willing to vassal? That sounds cheesy......

TheMeInTeam · Jun 25, 2009

r_rolo1 said:
So, let me see....

If TMIT had simply used 2 or 3 tacs and killed 15 units , he would be willing to vassal? That sounds cheesy......

They wouldn't even have to kill units. Nukes are worth a fixed 10 WS (IIRC, DanF told me not too long ago that this was to prevent farming huge WS from nuking big stacks)...so 2-3 would probably have been enough.

But since I was backwards once I went into $$$ buy mode, I banned them. (I eventually caught up again, since 3.19 vassals always trade techs w/ master and therefore I could just BUY a monopoly tech off one guy and broker it for rapid catchup).

shyuhe · Jun 25, 2009

@TMIT - OT but how much do techs cost to buy (beaker -- coin ratio)?

TheMeInTeam · Jun 25, 2009

1:1 as far as I can tell. Not bad if all you have are gold multipliers mostly and you can trade the bought tech, but usually terrible as anything other than balancing a trade

.

EmperorFool · Jun 25, 2009

TheMeInTeam said:
Nukes are worth a fixed 10 WS.

Yes, 10 per nuke. I didn't check if it counted the killed units, but probably not. Otherwise there'd be no point to adding an additional 10 for the method of destruction.

And vassals are not part of your team. They are still on their own team. Two players are on the same team if either they start as a team or they sign a PA.

TheMeInTeam · Jun 26, 2009

EmperorFool said:
Yes, 10 per nuke. I didn't check if it counted the killed units, but probably not. Otherwise there'd be no point to adding an additional 10 for the method of destruction.

And vassals are not part of your team. They are still on their own team. Two players are on the same team if either they start as a team or they sign a PA.

Vassals are still a factor in wars. The fact that the current capitulation system has a "skeleton coding" feel and that it's based on factors which can lead to ridiculous stupid outcomes (worldbuilder deleting your own vassal raising the odds of capitulation for one) tells me (and everyone else, hopefully) that this feature is in need of some work.

Whiskey_Lord · Jun 26, 2009

It's really too bad that you can't say to them "I'm not joking, and don't call me Sherly" then proceed to make them capitulate anyway.

DanF5771 · Jun 26, 2009

TheMeInTeam said:
My own WS was probably under 40, because I only captured 1 city (I certainly had the lead, but not by much there).

This usually isn't and probably wasn't the problem. You only need to kill 8 units and capture 1 city (or just kill 10 units, or fire 4 nukes :bowdown:

) while avoiding any losses of your own to get them to capitulate (provided you are strong enough and they are weak enough plus you have either double their land or pop).

TheMeInTeam said:
My vassals captured 3 cities however, which is why I could only take one.

This was most likely the problem, as capitulation to a team that has not done the most damage is discouraged. The difference between your vassal's WS and your own WS is counted towards your target's WS. --> You could have avoided this great WS of your vassal by telling him to attack other cities once a city is "ripe for capture".

r_rolo1 · Jun 26, 2009

Lovely....

So, asking for your vassals to do something in a war actually can make capping a foe harder or impossible..... Nice mechanism, and a good reason to keep vassals, indeed ..... :gripe:

[/TMIT rant]

"Surely, you must be joking" for Capitulation?

If A implies B...

Deity

Warlord

Deity

If A implies B...

Octobrist

Brewer of Oatmeal Stout

If A implies B...

Deity

If A implies B...

RPC Supergenius

King of myself

If A implies B...

Deity

If A implies B...

Deity

If A implies B...

Deity

Emperor

King of myself

Similar threads