3.19 & Artist Great Works.. what the hell

this is my first game with 3.19, sooo im just guessing that something changed.. but i could be wrong. can anyone explain the following?

I captured the babylonian capital, and used a great artist to a) "bomb" it out of revolt and b) ensure the seafood resources are quickly in my borders before the Incan cultural borders can contest them.

but.. this happened instead:

(note: i cut out only the necessary portions of the screen because i play on 1680x1050, and that might be abit big.)



First off, i play with the latest BUG/BULL mod, so i put the dot map showing the BFC of the town. As you can see in the image there's alot of uncontested tiles that did not get "popped" into my borders... even with 4000 culture from the artist.

The circle is where my mouse was hovered upon taking the screen shot. As you can see in the bottom left, noone has any culture there yet.



The image above shows the "culture hover" inside the city. it has 4000 culture.

what gives? why didn't those uncontested tiles automatically go to me? i figured ok, maybe if i wait a turn.... nope.

You should post a save, so that people could try to replicate it and/or fix if indeed there is a bug.

the problem with doing that is that im not playing vanilla. I've got the latest Unaltered Gameplay mods (BUG & BULL) installed into my custom assets folder (along with blue marble & king kong's flags).

not sure if that will conflict.

If it's in your customassets, it should not conflict. However, it you have BULL, it could be from here.

In any case, impossible to say anything without a save and/or an explanation of DanF

I find culture tiles outside of the BFC when they are expanded not to be consistent. Other than that, I have no idea.

played vanilla BTS no mods, and same happens to me. I already posted it further down.
I double checked all surrounding cities with the editor and none had a higher culture than my just captured one, in which I applied an artist. I did ONLY have a single tile to work on after the artist.

I suppose the best reason I can think of is that cuzcos culture is too strong for you to take them. What happened after a few more turns? Did your borders expand?

The tiles you can work on a city can be dependant upon the %indiginous population. If the population there ios more aztec than your empire, a few more turns and their border will expand to just next to your city. It's the only reason I can think of.

I'v seen this sort of thing happen before. Sometimes it takes awhile for the game to correctly calculate your cultural borders. In a few turns it will probably correct itself.

Back to 3.17...

I don't think anything changed in this regard with 3.19. I still have 3.17 and there the following happens.

At the moment of conquest the tiles surrounding the conquered cities are checked. If a tile

• was owned by the old city owner before conquest
• is not within the culture range of another city of the old owner
• is within the culture range of a city owned by a 3rd player (neither the old nor the new owner)

then this tile will be deliberately set "ForceUnowned" for 2 turns.

The plot culture of all parties is not erased, it's more like "invisible" for these 2 turns and will also increase via culture bombs by Great Artists, spread culture missions by Spies and normal plot culture produced by cities currently not under occupation.

So in the example the coastal tiles currently forced to be unowned are tiles that

• were owned by Hammurabi before conquest (he had the most plot culture there)
• are not within the culture range of another city of Hammurabi
• are within the culture range of Cuzco (3rd player = Huayna Capac).

fantsu said:

Back to 3.17...

Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with 3.19, I've been seeing this sort of thing happening since BtS came out. I guess if it bothers you that much, you could always go back to Warlords.

Willem said:

I guess if it bothers you that much, you could always go back to Warlords.

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Great advice dude. I think you made a really helpful suggestion there that deserves serious consideration.


Anyway, I'm necroing this thread because there's something I clearly don't understand about border wars. The screenshot below is the turn I capture Karakorum. I put a Great Work in there and the city is immediately pacified, but its borders don't seem to press out in a manner commensurate with the amount of culture it has against the rivals. The most culture the neighbors could possibly have is 3400, and Karakorum now has 12000. Marathon numbers, mind you: GA=12000. Note, though, how the city tile is 19% me and still mostly Mongol. I'll turn the Mongols off in a few turns, but Aachen to the north... well, I had wanted to eat some of its BFC since we overlap.



This 19% doesn't change at all in the next several turns, leading me to believe that I wont get any of Aachen's land unless I generate culture the hard way. This may seem like a waste of a GA but my strategy here was to put 2 GA's I had saved up towards cinching domination as fast as possible. Seems like it'll be slower than I thought. There's two scenarios for karakorum and I'd like to know if the alternative would have taken any of Aachen's land.

1: 2:I'm wondering if option 2 eats more of Aachen than does option 1, and most importantly, WHY.

Thanks!

Culture 'bombs' only modify the City Culture, not the Tile Culture.

Edit: It would more viable to quickly crank up the culture in the captured city by (1) settling Great Arists or (2) using an Engineer to build a wonder.

Jerrymander said:

Culture 'bombs' only modify the City Culture, not the Tile Culture.

Click to expand...

They also modify surrounding tile culture, but not very efficiently. The formula for doing this is somewhat complicated but it depends on your current cpt in the city. So if you bomb a city in revolt doing 0cpt, the effect on surrounding tile culture will be neglible. Also note that in an area with established AI culture (like near capitals) artist bombs will ALWAYS suck for landgrab. Don't expect to grab any land from an AI capital this way. The effect on surrounding tile culture is basically never anywhere near the same as churning out an equal amount of culture the old-fashioned way.

War academy (culture) articles for details as usual

Silu said:

They also modify surrounding tile culture, but not very efficiently. The formula for doing this is somewhat complicated but it depends on your current cpt in the city. So if you bomb a city in revolt doing 0cpt, the effect on surrounding tile culture will be neglible. Also note that in an area with established AI culture (like near capitals) artist bombs will ALWAYS suck for landgrab. Don't expect to grab any land from an AI capital this way. The effect on surrounding tile culture is basically never anywhere near the same as churning out an equal amount of culture the old-fashioned way.

War academy (culture) articles for details as usual

Click to expand...

Does BTS culture still function that way? Can you really get more tile culture by pumping your slider to 100% just before bombing? That's a trash mechanic and I thought they patched it...but maybe not?

Silu said:

They also modify surrounding tile culture, but not very efficiently. The formula for doing this is somewhat complicated but it depends on your current cpt in the city. So if you bomb a city in revolt doing 0cpt, the effect on surrounding tile culture will be neglible. Also note that in an area with established AI culture (like near capitals) artist bombs will ALWAYS suck for landgrab. Don't expect to grab any land from an AI capital this way. The effect on surrounding tile culture is basically never anywhere near the same as churning out an equal amount of culture the old-fashioned way.

War academy (culture) articles for details as usual

Click to expand...

Touche. After I posted I realized that my explanation wasn't complete, but I wasn't positive of the proper one.

TheMeInTeam said:

Does BTS culture still function that way? Can you really get more tile culture by pumping your slider to 100% just before bombing? That's a trash mechanic and I thought they patched it...but maybe not?

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You're right, it's not that way anymore - cpt doesn't affect bombing efficiency... Serves me for believing something from the war academy still applies I suppose. Nevertheless, bombing still sucks for tile culture no matter how you put it. Anyway, ignore my previous post.

I figured there had to be a CPT component in the tile culture, though not applying to a great work, the way things were panning out. This wasn't the first time I had tried (and failed) a landgrab with a culture bomb. This stuff isn't intuitive. So much to learn, so much to learn.

^ In case you didn't read the rest of the posts, there's NOT a CPT component. They just suck for landgrab, period

Silu said:

^ In case you didn't read the rest of the posts, there's NOT a CPT component. They just suck for landgrab, period

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Excepting situations where there is 0 tile culture already, of course . It will absolutely overwhelm a city if done in a newly founded city that is the minimum distance from another newly founded city.

Of course, you'd rarely if ever want to do that (and if the target city sucks it up and garrisons against flips until it gets border pops, you STILL might not flip it), but at least it's something.

Great works seem to carry no important purpose other than ending a revolt early (rarely worth it) or bombing up city culture for a culture victory (definitely worth it consistently, usually the best option). Well, at least the feature has a use.