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Blight

Taear

Chieftain
Joined
Jun 28, 2009
Messages
7
I'm sure this has been discussed before but I can't find it in the FAQ, nor can I find it searching the forum.

Is there a way to turn blight off? We played a game where we founded Ashen Veil and it's spread to everyone, meaning armageddon 30 came about extremely quickly, and effectively ended the game. I realise that Blight slowly fades as time goes on but is there no option to use to play with it off?

It's not fun to me to have all my cities instantly die off.
 
Blight is currently bugged and is set to be a lot worse than it is supposed to be. You can go to custom game and select one of the options to disable the AC totally, but not just blight.
 
Blight isn't currently bugged. Whenever someone new gets hit with massive blight for the first time they report it as a bug, and then a bunch of people "confirm" it. If you read back through the bug thread you can see that people have been reporting massive :yuck: from time to time for quite a while. Since before the new bug thread began, since before I started playing, and probably back much much further.

Blight is supposed to be bad enough to make you want to keep the AC low.
 
I read in the design notes that the AC was supposed to be one of the things that helped break late game deadlock.


Granted I've only played about a half dozen games, but so far every one of my experiences has been the exact opposite. It just seems to cripple people, setting back any kind of peaceful or military victory goal while everyone scrambles to deal with the horsemen units, or god forbid the avatar.
 
No, I could have sworn that I read that blight was bugged somewhere. And it is more severe than it used to be. I used to get knocked down a good 3 or 4 points per city. The last game that I played I got knocked down to 1 pop and not growing in every single city, except for one, which stagnated at 3 pop. One of my cities got +39 unhealthiness from blight alone on blight's first turn in play. If that's what it is supposed to be, than I agree with the OP.
 
. One of my cities got +39 unhealthiness from blight alone on blight's first turn in play.

+38 blight is what I had on a city of population 16. And because we're Ashen Veil and I'm the civilisation that wants to bring about the end of the world, Blight happened really really early.

Why would I ever want to play a civilisation that brings the end around if we have to waste about 50 turns utterly unable to do anything because our people are striking and all our cities are rebooted back to the start of the game? What's my motivation to be evil if it does exactly the same to me as it does to everyone else?

We've abandoned two games in progress now because in the first we were really late in the game and about to win, but the clock ticked over to 30 and the frustration of suddenly having to wait 50 turns to continue wasn't worth finishing the game. Then in the second 30 came along so quickly that it just didn't feel worth it carrying on. I'm fine with something that adds a bit of challenge, I'm fine with something that changes the dynamic in the late game. But it doesn't, because everyone gets hit by it and it just causes a sudden long term stalemate until we're all back to normal again.
 
Well here is the blight code from the CvRandomEventInterface.py file:

Code:
def doArmageddonBlight(argsList):
	kTriggeredData = argsList[0]
	iPlayer = argsList[1]
#	iPlayer = kTriggeredData.ePlayer
	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(iPlayer)
	if pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_INFERNAL'):
		for pyCity in PyPlayer(iPlayer).getCityList() :
			pCity = pyCity.GetCy()
			i = CyGame().getSorenRandNum(15, "Blight")
			i += pCity.getPopulation()
			i -= pCity.totalGoodBuildingHealth()
			pCity.changeEspionageHealthCounter(i)
	py = PyPlayer(iPlayer)
	for pUnit in py.getUnitList():
		if pUnit.isAlive():
			pUnit.doDamageNoCaster(25, 100, gc.getInfoTypeForString('DAMAGE_DEATH'), false)

It would be a bit less severe if it was changed to this:

Code:
def doArmageddonBlight(argsList):
	kTriggeredData = argsList[0]
	iPlayer = argsList[1]
#	iPlayer = kTriggeredData.ePlayer
	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(iPlayer)
	if pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_INFERNAL'):
		for pyCity in PyPlayer(iPlayer).getCityList() :
			pCity = pyCity.GetCy()
			i = CyGame().getSorenRandNum(10, "Blight")
			i += pCity.getPopulation() * 0.75
			i -= pCity.totalGoodBuildingHealth()
			pCity.changeEspionageHealthCounter(i)
	py = PyPlayer(iPlayer)
	for pUnit in py.getUnitList():
		if pUnit.isAlive():
			pUnit.doDamageNoCaster(25, 100, gc.getInfoTypeForString('DAMAGE_DEATH'), false)

So I guess that it really isn't a glitch, but it seems way too harsh to me. Oh well.
 
It is very hard to say if it is a bug or if it is acting as designed. I think the 'problem' is that, in my experience, blight is 'non-linear'. That is, the blight for a pop 20 city is supposed to be worse than for a pop 4 city , but the pop 20 city seems ALWAYS to go to pop 1 and stay there for a long time. Anyone building an empire with very large cities will get hit a lot harder than somebody with medium sized cities.

My feeling is that the blight should hit the bigger city more, but not effectively doom bigger cities to have worse absolute population than smaller cities.

The way the game plays now, if you are getting close to a 30 AC, you should intentionally starve your cities down to a smaller population.

Note I'm not 100% sure I'm right about this, but it has been my experience. Starve your cities to the 5-8 range on purpose. But if this is the intent, I'm not sure the results have been thought through - does it make sense starving your cities is a good tactic?


Best wishes,

Breunor
 
+38 blight is what I had on a city of population 16. And because we're Ashen Veil and I'm the civilisation that wants to bring about the end of the world, Blight happened really really early.

Why would I ever want to play a civilisation that brings the end around if we have to waste about 50 turns utterly unable to do anything because our people are striking and all our cities are rebooted back to the start of the game? What's my motivation to be evil if it does exactly the same to me as it does to everyone else?

We've abandoned two games in progress now because in the first we were really late in the game and about to win, but the clock ticked over to 30 and the frustration of suddenly having to wait 50 turns to continue wasn't worth finishing the game. Then in the second 30 came along so quickly that it just didn't feel worth it carrying on. I'm fine with something that adds a bit of challenge, I'm fine with something that changes the dynamic in the late game. But it doesn't, because everyone gets hit by it and it just causes a sudden long term stalemate until we're all back to normal again.

Yeah based on my experience so far I have to agree with this. It really just doesn't change anything but making everyone sit around until it goes away, unless you're Infernals. It sucks even for the Shieam. I just don't see how it's supposed to break any kind of deadlock; it does the exact opposite.


P.S. I swore I read somewhere that the person who brought the Infernals/Mercurians into play could choose to switch control over to them at ANY time, but so far I only get the option when they first appear. Since taking the infernals early game is kind of weak, I've never done it. Is there any way to take control of them later on?
 
Is there any way to take control of them later on?

No normal way, no. You switch when you summon them or not at all.

Spoiler Random event spoiler related to this question :
There is a random event that can occur which will entail another civ asking you to lead them because you've been so successful with your current civ. In theory you could switch later as a result of that event. You have no way of knowing when or if the event would occur, however, so that's not really something you can plan on.
 
It is very hard to say if it is a bug or if it is acting as designed. I think the 'problem' is that, in my experience, blight is 'non-linear'. That is, the blight for a pop 20 city is supposed to be worse than for a pop 4 city , but the pop 20 city seems ALWAYS to go to pop 1 and stay there for a long time. Anyone building an empire with very large cities will get hit a lot harder than somebody with medium sized cities.

My feeling is that the blight should hit the bigger city more, but not effectively doom bigger cities to have worse absolute population than smaller cities.

The way the game plays now, if you are getting close to a 30 AC, you should intentionally starve your cities down to a smaller population.

Intentionally starving your population isn't necessary if you plan ahead. An empire full of cities at their :health: cap is asking to be smacked down hard by blight. There's no reason you have to allow your cities to grow so large that you have no spare :health:. Switch population to specialists or have them work mines/workshops to control growth. Try to cut off growth just before food storage is full, so that the city has plenty of spare food as a buffer against starvation. If you're not working every tile around a city then you can still have a lot of excess food potential that isn't being worked (ie idle farms). When Blight hits, shift everyone to maximize food output to offset the stavation that :yuck: would be causing. You can also switch to Agrarianism (and out of Aristocracy) temporarily to boost food output; the lost turns of anarchy may be worth saving your population.

Some times the AC can surprise you, and Blight can hit before you are prepared. If you're planning on founding and spreading AV then you can anticipate it. Research techs to unlock health sources and seek them out (trading for them if you can't control them directly), and make sure to build Aqueducts and Infirmaries in all your cities (the code that DrPepper836 posted shows that they not only provide :health: but also reduce the level of :yuck: inflicted by Blight). Plan accordingly and your empire won't shut down completely.
 
Intentionally starving your population isn't necessary if you plan ahead. An empire full of cities at their :health: cap is asking to be smacked down hard by blight. There's no reason you have to allow your cities to grow so large that you have no spare :health:. Switch population to specialists or have them work mines/workshops to control growth. Try to cut off growth just before food storage is full, so that the city has plenty of spare food as a buffer against starvation. If you're not working every tile around a city then you can still have a lot of excess food potential that isn't being worked (ie idle farms). When Blight hits, shift everyone to maximize food output to offset the stavation that :yuck: would be causing. You can also switch to Agrarianism (and out of Aristocracy) temporarily to boost food output; the lost turns of anarchy may be worth saving your population.

Some times the AC can surprise you, and Blight can hit before you are prepared. If you're planning on founding and spreading AV then you can anticipate it. Research techs to unlock health sources and seek them out (trading for them if you can't control them directly), and make sure to build Aqueducts and Infirmaries in all your cities (the code that DrPepper836 posted shows that they not only provide :health: but also reduce the level of :yuck: inflicted by Blight). Plan accordingly and your empire won't shut down completely.

I guess I consider this as similar - if you know the blight is coming, the key is you know a smaller population will leave you with a larger popualtion than a larger one. Whether I grow the population first and starve it, or control the growth to get to a smaller number, either way we are in a position where, for instance, having N more poeple makes the blight hit more that N. I don't consider that as 'correct', but it is a personal taste. I also don't see it as 'realistic'. If there is a crop blight, why would this happen?

Fundamentally, I don't understand why it makes sense that a city with 10 and a city with 20 would have the city with 10, with the same resources, have more people after a blight?? In the limit, I guess they should wind up with the same number of people, the food capacity. But what we get is that the city with 20 goes down to 1 and has to stay there for 20 turns or so later; the city with 10 goes down to about 5.

And so the answer is that we know this and purposely suppress the population, whether through not growing, starving your people, or slavery?

Furthermore, I find controlling the blight by intentionally not growing I find to be kind of a 'gamey' tactic. Yes, we know that blight hits exactly at an AC of 30 and can plan ahead for this event. Maybe this result can be justified through some sort of prophecy power of something like that, but otherwise, I just don't think it makes sense that players 'plan' around knowing exactly how a blight will hit and that the hit impact is beyond linear.

So, yes, I agree I can do all kinds of strategies to ensure my population is 8 instead of 20, but I think it is a bad design decision.

I also think that the greater than 100% imnpact of a blight is another effect where the human understands the gaminess and the AI probably doesn't. At least that's my view.


Best wishes,


Breunor
 
I don't consider that as 'correct', but it is a personal taste. I also don't see it as 'realistic'. If there is a crop blight, why would this happen?

I think it simulates a plague better than a crop blight. Overcrowded populations are especially vulnerable to disease, which is why a huge city can suffer catastrophic casualties while a medium city suffers only minor losses. That would also explain why Aqueducts and Infirmaries are doubly advantageous in reducing the damage from Blight. Starvation would probably not be alleviated by either one. Perhaps calling it "Blight" is misleading.

Furthermore, I find controlling the blight by intentionally not growing I find to be kind of a 'gamey' tactic. Yes, we know that blight hits exactly at an AC of 30 and can plan ahead for this event. Maybe this result can be justified through some sort of prophecy power of something like that, but otherwise, I just don't think it makes sense that players 'plan' around knowing exactly how a blight will hit and that the hit impact is beyond linear.

I'm not sure it's realistic to condemn a mechanic because it requires the player to plan ahead. Many strategies are dependent upon the foreknowledge of the player for success. For example, the first player to research certain techs founds the associated religion - and each religion lends itself to certain strategies. If a religion fits the style of game you're planning on playing then you should try to research the associated tech before anyone else... but how do you know that researching that tech will cause you to found a religion? And how do you know that the religion you found is going to be one that suits your plans for the game? For that matter, how are you able to form a plan for the game, at all, without a great deal of foreknowledge about what is possible and what is likely to happen?

I don't mean to derail this thread with a philosophical discussion about the nature of the player's role as guide of a civilization. If someone chooses not to brace themselves for blight for the sake of greater realism, I respect that decision. However, I believe that it is reasonable to make balance and design decisions based on the fact that the player is capable of planning ahead.
 
If you read back through the bug thread you can see that people have been reporting massive :yuck: from time to time for quite a while. Since before the new bug thread began, since before I started playing, and probably back much much further.

Which is because Kael does in fact break blight pretty much every time he releases a new version. Look through older bug threads and you should notice the changelogs containing fixes for blight, which last a few months before blight gets broken in some new way.

According to the code posted earlier in this thread, blight should hit every city with unhealthiness equal to city size + a random number between 1 and 15 - health bonuses from buildings. I and a bunch of other people have lost like 50 health in size 20ish cities. That both contradicts the code and looks an awful lot like older versions of blight which cropped up when a new version came out and were patched.
 
I think it simulates a plague better than a crop blight. Overcrowded populations are especially vulnerable to disease, which is why a huge city can suffer catastrophic casualties while a medium city suffers only minor losses. That would also explain why Aqueducts and Infirmaries are doubly advantageous in reducing the damage from Blight. Starvation would probably not be alleviated by either one. Perhaps calling it "Blight" is misleading.

Ok, that makes sense. Perhaps we can view the event as a plague/blight/etc.


I'm not sure it's realistic to condemn a mechanic because it requires the player to plan ahead. Many strategies are dependent upon the foreknowledge of the player for success. For example, the first player to research certain techs founds the associated religion - and each religion lends itself to certain strategies. If a religion fits the style of game you're planning on playing then you should try to research the associated tech before anyone else... but how do you know that researching that tech will cause you to found a religion? And how do you know that the religion you found is going to be one that suits your plans for the game? For that matter, how are you able to form a plan for the game, at all, without a great deal of foreknowledge about what is possible and what is likely to happen?

I don't mean to derail this thread with a philosophical discussion about the nature of the player's role as guide of a civilization. If someone chooses not to brace themselves for blight for the sake of greater realism, I respect that decision. However, I believe that it is reasonable to make balance and design decisions based on the fact that the player is capable of planning ahead.

I’m not against a rule or effect that takes planning. I guess my take on this thread and similar threads is that they have two or three purposes:

First, a simple question – is it a bug or not? That is, is the effect that we are seeing in the game intended by the designers? If so, then I think many of us would feel ‘better’ about the effect, but at this point we aren’t sure. Monkeyfinger’s post indicates that it is indeed a bug. My earlier post said I wasn't sure.

Second, if the answer to the above question is no, are there unintended consequences of the rule that are acting in a way that also alter the game in unintended ways?

We can probably add a third purpose, which is a simple view that we do or do not like the mechanic and wish to report this.


My understanding of the AC and its impacts, especially at lower AC levels, is that it is a ‘rubber band’ mechanic; it is intended to rebalance the game against the player who is strongest. So, horsemen are largely set against the leader. But we have other threads about whether the horsemen are powerful enough, and there is a lot of divided opinion. But to handle the horsemen, the best response (as well as planning) is to endure some of your army is home, and to be as strong as possible militarily.

Here, if the idea is that the blight is intended to strike the person who is winning the most, by hitting those with the most powerful and largest cities, I can understand it. But we still have to question if this is a good rule. Maybe it is supposed to hit the Ljosalfar with their huge happiness bonuses and large cities hardest.

I want to say I don’t like the mechanic, even if I can plan through it. For blight, I just don’t like the game mechanic that you intentionally weaken yourself to handle the event. That’s my opinion.

If the rule works as Monekeyfinger said it is supposed to work, then it would be in my mind even better, it wouldn’t be non-linear at all. You wouldn’t have a rule that intentional weakening is part of the optimal planning process.

I also think that both the horsemen and the blight would be more effective if there was more variability in their appearance. I would prefer if there was a probability of appearance slightly before the AC trigger and then rising. In that case, I couldn’t do what I do now, which is figure out when and where the horsemen comes, and then take him down; and those of us who do that often felt he horsemen aren’t very strong because they are easy to counter and become a nice sourceof magical weapons. Of course, we can make the same arguemtn for other mechanics - we probably shouldn't know for certainty when a great man will be born or when a ritual will be completed; but I think the impact of a horsemen coming is more decisive.

However, if Kael or any of the other main designers would come out and say that they did indeed, think of all of this, they intentionally want people to learn to build smaller cities, that they intentionally want smaller cities to have more people in them through the blight than larger cities, intentionally think the Ljosalfar and their huge cities are too powerful and the mechanic was created for this purpose, I would feel better about it. My instincts are that this isn’t happening – as Monkeyfinger pointed out above, blight is a tricky mechanic that they have been tinkering with for a long time, and my view is that it isn’t working ‘properly’ and that the intended result was more like Monkeyfinger said.

Best wishes,

Breunor
 
Intentionally starving your population isn't necessary if you plan ahead. An empire full of cities at their :health: cap is asking to be smacked down hard by blight. There's no reason you have to allow your cities to grow so large that you have no spare :health:. Switch population to specialists or have them work mines/workshops to control growth. Try to cut off growth just before food storage is full, so that the city has plenty of spare food as a buffer against starvation. If you're not working every tile around a city then you can still have a lot of excess food potential that isn't being worked (ie idle farms). When Blight hits, shift everyone to maximize food output to offset the stavation that :yuck: would be causing. You can also switch to Agrarianism (and out of Aristocracy) temporarily to boost food output; the lost turns of anarchy may be worth saving your population.
.

There is absolutely nothing you can do if your cities gain +30 or more when the blight hits. You would have to never build any +:yuck: mods in your cities as well as keeping them all at around 8/10 population and even then it'd be a close run thing.
It basically turns the game into "Play this way or don't bother playing at all". Now, like I said before it's not like blight ends up killing you since everyone is at least theoretically struck by it equally. It just involves lots of ending your turn because neither you or your enemies can do anything.

I thought the previously structured "best ways to play" style of Civ4 was what FFH was trying to avoid?
 
I find blight to be rarely a gamebreaker. With a farm based economy I usually switch out of aristocracy on the first turn and the overabundance of food is usually enough to stop pop loss after cities shrink from ~size 20 to 15. Once the cities have regained their pop you can switch back to aristo again.

I do think that the mechanics of hitting high pop cities that much harder don't make a lot of sense. That is already reflected by large cities usually sitting at their health cap/working proportionally less high food tiles.
 
When blight hits, you, as a Sheim player, should be using sacrifice of the weak and therefore off setting the worst of the effects.

Also, since you're relying on summons to do your bidding, blight should barely affect your ability to conquer civs whilst they're suffering from blight, since you'll already have tons of mages and adepts at this point whereas other civs will rely on hammers to produce their units.

My two cents from playing Sheim and AV a bunch of times.
 
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