Immortal University XXVI: Tokugawa

TheMeInTeam

If A implies B...
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
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Hello all and welcome to the Immortal University! This series was started a long time ago to move a group of the forum's players to the next level. Are you ready for the U?

This is the 26th in the storied series. Not steroid series. At least, we've never failed a test .

We will uphold the university's traditions...smacking down the hapless AI!

Our leader this time around:

Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg


So awesome. The UU is COOL! What? It's not impressive in a fast-paced tech game? We'll see about that! UB is the quasi-underrated shale plant, which goes OK in national park cities and requires no resource to function (aka guaranteed powa!)

Here's the start:

Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg


As usual, it's the first start I generate on a random fractal map. To be honest, it's the first time I considered re-rolling. One off the coast for a perceived weak leader with a commerce poor start that we don't have techs for? But, it's the U baby...time to LEARN :eek:.

To play, just extract the WB save file into your worldbuilder saves directory, then play it. Use custom scenario if you want some extra settings to tickle your fancy. This series was designed for people learning immortal, so most people here will be at that level or trying to attain it, although deity players are welcome also. Hell, if you want to play this on NOBLE, go ahead, but I'm not peeling off the AI bonuses. The intention of this and any other game thread I post is to get better. Play whatever level you need in order to improve. Just remember, there are immortal bonuses and that's not going to change unless you WB edit it.

If you are aspiring IMM+, try to remember to add archery back to the barbs in WB. Every time you don't, a deity AI will kill a kitten, although there are a lot of kittens so it's not the end of the world if you prefer easymode barbs .

I do request people to list their difficulty and speed. In terms of updates, well nobody follows that anyway. Post in the manner you feel comfortable. Typical comparison dates are 1 AD, liberalism, and victory/defeat, as well as any major events. If in doubt, go with that.

Without further ado, the ZIP file:

View attachment IU XXVI Toku.zip
 
Haha, no irrigation, hunting or mining.

What a conundrum.

Seriously tempted to burn a turn or two looking for seafood, otherwise I'll come inland.

Warr -> N
Settler -> NE

If no fish, move settler to north of pigs and settle on turn 2 to free up the river grassland hill.


although...

that tile 2W of the warrior isn't forested is it?
----

Bleh, maybe I'll just settle 1E and forget scouting for fish.
Irr-Mining-BW-AH

worker-warr-warr-worker CHOP CHOP CHOP CHOP CHOP
 
I'm a pretty noob player, but I tend to play Tokugawa a lot. One thing worth thinking about is going for early guilds and gunpowder. His prot/agg combo can make for a nasty mid-game rush thanks to the free gunpowder promotions. You'll want to secure some iron early, since unlike regular Maceman the Samurai only fight with the best quality steel (copper won't work!). Finally, despite his warmongering traits its usually best NOT to play too aggressively with Tokugawa early game, because he doesn't have a trait like Financial or Organized to handle maintenance well until around mid-game when your cottages mature. But I have a feeling you already know all about this! Good luck, I'll definitely be watching this game, hoping to learn a thing or two.
 
I don't mind the one tile of the coast start. No sea food close so I would just send the warrior NE and then propably go 1E with the settler. Tech path: Agr->AH->mining->bronze working->mysticism. Toku is one of the leaders I always try to nab stonehenge with. Since the rest is already slow I can't stand it to also have to build monuments too. When I get to the age of the samurai I want to have a solid economy and then start conquering like mad. I love the samurai!
 
I'm thinking more Min, BW, Mys, Med, Prst, Pottery, Writing, AH and build the Oracle > COL > GMs for bulbing MC. That should let you trade for Alpha, Math, Poly. Then hit Aesthetics, Literature, CS. Machinery. Before you get to CS use a GP to start a GA and run max merchants in your GPF/NE and get about 2 of them. Mass upgrade a bunch of warriors to Samurai and conquer the continent.
 
I'll be following this closely. Toku is just one of those leaders I always wanted to play well but could never get a handle on. Will be interesting to see how you play past his handicaps.
 
That start is very strong. Two 6 yeild food resources, rivers, a lot of grassland and a lot of forests to chop. Sure getting to AG + AH + BW will take some time, but once you get there, you'll be able to support quite a bit of expansion. It'll also be an excelent burrecracy capital at some point.
 
Up for this one! :)
Already played till 50 BC (immortal/normal), will report later today...
Spoiler don't read if you haven't explored a bit :
As Oyzar said, the start is really strong... The marble in the south makes it even better for a good shot at the early wonders (Oracle/Parthenon/Great Library), which makes up imo for Toku's poor traits regarding economy.
 
I'm gonna try this game when I get home, cause I seriously need to move up to Immortal.
Though I haven't finished any emperor games in a while, I usually own the AI. I make some serious mistakes at times and sometimes let the AI run amok to become industrial and modern powerhouses, but I guess I am handicapping myself. :P
 
That start is very strong. Two 6 yeild food resources, rivers, a lot of grassland and a lot of forests to chop. Sure getting to AG + AH + BW will take some time, but once you get there, you'll be able to support quite a bit of expansion. It'll also be an excelent burrecracy capital at some point.

That's pretty much my first thought as well. The key imo will definitely be getting down cottages in that capital, as developing an early economy with Toku is extremely important imo. Once AH/BW/Pottery are in then I would say increasing the :) in the capital should take priority (Oracle-->Monarchy?).
 
Toku is one of those leaders that if you manage to not get backwards in the BC's and give yourself a good solid foundation for the rest of the game he becomes VERY strong in the mid-endgame where you begin up massing armies.

His UU btw is very underrated, 25% extra production on top of power aint to shabby is it.
 
to 950AD, immortal, epic (no civs found other than those on starting continent)

Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0007-3.jpg


settled one east - it has more land and gives me that grassland hill that we started on. as the screenie shows, i lost my initial warrior to a lion (at about 80% odds, in my favour). this is exactly why i normally play with barbs off.

Civ4ScreenShot0008-4.jpg


settling one east actually lost me the copper that would have been in my starting BFC. however, by settling one east, i actually got another, so it was all good :crazyeye:. with Louis starting just north of me (he founded the city you can see at about 3000BC, so i knew he was close), and copper available easily, an axe rush was a no-brainer. you can see my stack here.

i had already settled a city just to the south to get gold, corn and marble, so my economy was already tanking.

thanks to some good luck, i raised the first city with no losses, and took paris with only a few. after raising his other two cities (including Rheims, which was built on the same spot as the first city i raised), he was eliminated. this left me with a lot of land - the peninsula to the north and as much of the continent to the south as i could claim before Mansa got there.

Civ4ScreenShot0009-3.jpg


oh yeah, here's paris after i took it. as you can see it comes with SH. always nice to capture (although it did produce me a GP later on, although that wasn't too bad).

after the war, i set about making my way to CoL, basically through the power of scientists. my first GS, i settled in my capital (my beaker rate was very low). the second i used for an academy also in the capital. the third GP was a prophet, but somehow i had managed to found Confucianism, so i just used him for that.

concerning Mansa:
being Mansa, he was teching superbly. by the time i finally got a warrior to his border, he had longbows (this was about 500BC) :eek:. however, with some good beelining (specifically CoL, Civil Service) i managed to achieve some sort of recovery. he is still miles ahead though on the bottom half of the tree - i don't even have MC, he has guilds. i did manage to steal a few techs - specifically IW and calendar. i do have philosophy over him, but we both have paper. and i definitely wasn't the first to philosophy, so the liberalism race will be close.

as for religion, this was interesting. Mansa founded Hinduism and Judaism, and i later founded Confucianism in Tokyo (a border city). initially Mansa was Hindu, so i followed suit. however he built the SP, so he went FR. as i was no longer getting any kind of bonus relations-wise for my religion, i went Confucianist - the added cultural pressure was helpful. i also used my GP to build the kong miao, so i was keen to spread it around.

here's a picture of my empire and Mansa's. as you can see, i have recently began to backfill some of the French territories.
Civ4ScreenShot0010-4.jpg


plans for the future would be a beeline to some military tech (steel hopefully) and then take on Mansa. i still haven't met any other leaders.


EDIT: thanks to a disk error this is my first game of civ for about 3 months, so i am a bit out of practice.
 
to 50 BC, immortal/normal

Spoiler :
I settle one east for more production, and more land tiles, while keeping the two food bonuses. I thought at PK's comment on the empty tile... well I decide to accept to wait for the second border pop or to have to settle another city if any resource shows up... for nothing! The tile has copper but another one is in the new site too so...

Went worker/agri, then warrior to grow to size 3, then worker-> settler -> axe -> worker -> worker -> settler... I went BW ->mysticism -> pot-> AH afterward to chop all this wood, and for more commerce/food. Then writing -> aesthetic -> litterature -> med -> PH -> COL on going. Traded for Alpha, math, sailing, IW, monarchy, sailing. Settled the corn/pig city in the south first as copper was in the cap, then the pig/dye in the west. I am now to seven cities with room for two other with perhaps a third filler...
This is a small continent with 2 AIs, greedy Mansa, and Louis, the shiny backstaber... Still, I left them alone as I didn't want to end up alone with an immortal AI (no trades), as the best is then to put you in isolation :lol:... So we have a very small Louis in my game with a reasonnable Mansa (teching well as always...).
Got a scientist for an academy in Kyoto, Build Parthenon/great Library combo near Mansa for culture and GS generation... next guy will be here in 4 turns (hopefully Mansa will let me philo ;)). Plan is to go lib path and either grab nationalism for a muskets/trebs assault or a more ambitious steel for a muskets/cannons attack... Other techs will be traded hopefully...

I don't have many pics :(
techs researched:
Civ4ScreenShot0963.jpg

and Japan!:
Civ4ScreenShot0962.jpg


also: in a "hommage" to TMIT, I played quite fast ... so don't whine about crap micro :lol: blame the AI designers!


Cheers,
Raskolnikov
 

Attachments

@Shyuhe:
Spoiler :
:lol: ... target acquired: Awdaghost :scan:
I guess I can't count on resource poping here on normal speed :lol:
 
@Shyuhe:
Spoiler :
:lol: ... target acquired: Awdaghost :scan:
I guess I can't count on resource poping here on normal speed :lol:

Spoiler :

Yeah. I settled a crap city between the gold and iron just for the iron. I have to make sure it doesn't culture flip now... I'll post my report ~1AD later today as well. I took a more aggressive approach in my game.

 
@RRR:
Spoiler :
interesting that you chose not to rush louis - he is very close, you have copper in the BFC, and are aggressive - it is the perfect situation for an axe rush. on the other hand, it seems to have payed dividends, at least in the short term. your research is far better than mine, and your land grab is slightly more successful. good to see two different approaches, i was worried when i opened it up that we would have everyone axe-rushing like crazy
 
Why do people think Toku is bad at economy?

With fishing and the wheel he is only 1 tech away from pottery. This allows an early cottage or two right at the start which will accerate research on anything else you want.

Granted it doesnt work on this map, but in general its powerful. And you have Combat I warriors for defense until you hook something else up. I don't get all the hate for starting Japanese.
 
Why do people think Toku is bad at economy?

With fishing and the wheel he is only 1 tech away from pottery. This allows an early cottage or two right at the start which will accerate research on anything else you want.

Granted it doesnt work on this map, but in general its powerful. And you have Combat I warriors for defense until you hook something else up. I don't get all the hate for starting Japanese.

He doesn't expand well and usually resources dictate he goes something other than pottery first. That said, traits mean little compared to map layouts...
 
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