Immortal University XXVII: Napoleon

TheMeInTeam

If A implies B...
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
27,995
Hello all and welcome to the Immortal University! This series was started a long time ago to move a group of the forum's players to the next level. Are you ready for the U?

This is the 27th in the storied series. Not steroid series. At least, we've never failed a test.

We will uphold the university's traditions...smacking down the hapless AI!

Our leader this time around:

Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg


Another underrated UU, this thing serves the sweeping role quite well and just might have something to say to the ottoman UU heads up :p. The UB isn't exactly top notch either but it's a free specialists, do with it what you will.

Here's the start:

Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg


As usual, it's the first start I generate on a random fractal map. I left huts on since I am now rotating them on/off each IU. As for the start itself...wow. Pretty nice for a first roll. Let's hope our neighbors are as forgiving!

To play, just extract the WB save file into your worldbuilder saves directory, then play it. Use custom scenario if you want some extra settings to tickle your fancy. This series was designed for people learning immortal, so most people here will be at that level or trying to attain it, although deity players are welcome also. Hell, if you want to play this on NOBLE, go ahead, but I'm not peeling off the AI bonuses. The intention of this and any other game thread I post is to get better. Play whatever level you need in order to improve. Just remember, there are immortal bonuses and that's not going to change unless you WB edit it.

If you are aspiring IMM+, try to remember to add archery back to the barbs in WB. Every time you don't, a deity AI will kill a kitten, although there are a lot of kittens so it's not the end of the world if you prefer easymode barbs .

I do request people to list their difficulty and speed. In terms of updates, well nobody follows that anyway. Post in the manner you feel comfortable. Typical comparison dates are 1 AD, liberalism, and victory/defeat, as well as any major events. If in doubt, go with that.

Without further ado, the ZIP file:

View attachment IU XXVII Napoleon.zip
 
I'm tempted to scout 1S and settle 1SE. Screw one crappy tile in the BFC.

Regarding the UU, it works quite well with cuirassiers - it provides excellent cover for them against pikes and elephants. The UB is well... fuel for GA (golden age) fodder I guess. 4 beakers (+ modifiers) with representation isn't bad though.
 
1 SE looks good, but I would be worried about possibly giving up a seafood. Only 2 visible resources and some flood plains currently, though something popping up on the empty hill to the north is likely.

Bah being at work and not being able to play the first few turns to find out.
 
To 375 AD/Normal

Spoiler :

Moved my Settler 1W, saw nothing I liked, settled 1 S of starting location. Turned out I lost the Horses in the BFC :( Went up the Aesthetics line, got Parthenon + GL + NE in the capital. Spawned a GA as my first GP and used him to culture bomb Marseilles to get the Sheep, as Shaka settled the Rice + Sheep kinda early in my game while I settled around it. Spawned a GS later, bulbed Philo, founded Taoism. Working on the next GP, still don't have an Academy in Paris. Got to Music for the free GA, just jumped into a GA for some civics switches (HR, OR). Also popped Iron in the capital randomnly, much appreciated.

Settled 6 cities
15pnzeq.jpg

Only one of which, Paris, is really capable of doing anything noteworthy. Prayed Shaka wouldn't go after me after he settled on my borders -- he didn't and chose Caesar instead. The two have been waring for a couple hundred of years now.

Techboard
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Overall, I definitely don't have enough land for any sort of victory. Gonna try and get Steel from Lib with deep GS bulbing (I find Steel is easily obtainable even in Immortal if you have a good enough GP farm and trade partners to backfill) and rip apart Shaka. Gonna be a lots of whipping and drafting in the future, that's for sure.
 
4000BC - 650BC: Immortal/Normal

Spoiler :

After being manhandled on Deity again I figured I would give the IU a whirl. Thanks to TMIT for hosting this great series. I know these games and the advice I got really improved my game. Hopefully I can help others this time around.

4000BC: Scouted 1S and settled in place. I considered settling 1S but thought better of it. It didn't really seem to gain much besides a riverside grassland and that isn't worth possibly missing seafood or a strategic resource, imo.

Opening techpath: AH -> mine -> BW -> pottery -> writing
Opening build order: worker -> warrior -> warrior -> barracks -> worker ->chariot ad nauseum

3880BC: My warrior pops hunting from a hut to the south. TMIT cringes and I shave a turn off AH! :lol:

3720BC: Meet Shaka. Meeting him this early, I immediately consider a rush. He is completely intolerable as a neighbor and having him this close means there is likely not enough room for the both of us anyway. We will see what AH and BW reveal...

3600BC: Warrior pops 44 gold from SE hut.

3520BC: AH is in and I have horse in the capital BFC. Chariot rush is a serious possibility. After improving the cows, my worker improves the horse, building a road along the way, then connects it with a road under the horse tile. The worker then builds a mine on the marble for a 5H tile. After the second worker is out they both chop everything in sight.

3480BC: Meet AC. Around this time my initial warrior gets a look at Shaka's capital. Its on a hill which will make any rush, especially one with chariots, that much harder.

2440BC: Meet Mao.

2000BC: Meet Gilgamesh.

1960BC: Writing is in and I set research to aesthetics and the slider to 0%. (Later I would turn it back on briefly to get Myst and Fish).

1600BC: DoW time:
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1560BC: Shaka is asleep at the switch and only has 1 archer defending:
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1520BC: He whips 1 more but its not enough:
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1440BC: As you can see in this picture, Shaka had a mini-SoD headed toward Paris but it turned around this turn. Even though my chariots haven't really healed I decide to press the offensive rather than allow these units to hole up in a city.
Civ4ScreenShot0170-1.jpg


1400BC: One more down. I razed this one...
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1200BC: ...and this one:
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Shaka's baby SoD shows up again. It turns away from the city though and I massacre it in the open next turn.
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1120BC: I'm rewarded with my first GG. I use him for a super medic.
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1000BC: Another city razed and a worker captured:
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850BC: Finally Shaka is dead. I kept this city as it will be a good GP farm after IW.
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825BC: I had opened borders with AC a while back and he spreads Judaism to me. I don't convert yet but I will soon.
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775BC: Orleans is founded. Together with Shaka's last city, this should block JC assuming I can get their borders to pop soon enough.
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700BC: I revolt to Judaism. Its in all but 1 city and AC has a missionary on the way to Orleans right now.
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Here are my lands with dot maps.

North:
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South:
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My EP points are on AC and I can see he is teching Construction. The AI is really slow on getting Alpha but I still plan on doing the Aesthetics trade and then building the GLib since it seems a pity to waste the marble.

I really need IW to clear the jungle to the south but I have a crap load of land to work with. AC should be a good friend for now and, along with Gilga, we can beat up on Mao who is Buddhist. I need to set up another settler pump (maybe Shaka's capital will do? its pretty crappy) so Paris can focus on GLib or whatever.

Questions or criticism are welcome!
 

Attachments

Immortal/Normal No Events

To 25 AD

Spoiler :


Settled in place. Tech path was AH, masonry, mining, mysticism, meditation, priesthood, writing, CoL (oracle), backfill things like fishing/pottery.

I spent maybe 10 turns in slavery this whole game. I actually had caste available first. Ok, let's go:

Civ4ScreenShot0000-1.jpg


Hi gimme worker.

I also decided prior to this (since I met shaka on turn 5) to go after him. He settled his 2nd city before this, so after stealing the worker, I looped my warrior back over to the north of his capitol. Guess where all the archers went?

If you guessed not his 2nd city, you guessed correctly.

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He'd hooked up chariots though and was starting to get harassive, so I called a very temporary cease fire since I could tell he had no copper.

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It is so nice of shaka to donate workers like this.

Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg


And since he has a lot of hill archers in his cap, I again raze his other city, and this time I'm not letting him out of it. I pillage every improvement he has, and sit on him, allowing me to conquer some barb cities and settle about.

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Obviously construction will allow a swift finish to him once I get it.



To liberalism.

Spoiler :


Cats ftw...settled GG gets them to CR II and vs archers that's murder.

Civ4ScreenShot0012.jpg


TGL - go marble!

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I get mostly non-scientists (wind up with 2 shrines - confuc and taoist), so lose lib

Civ4ScreenShot0014.jpg


 
To 1864 Diplomation

Spoiler :


Heroic epic in ulundi churns a lot of horse archer progression towards cavalry (wanted to hit sooner but tech pace was pretty good). Once I trade for engineering I mix in trebs also ---> a 2nd GG went in ulundi to allow me to produce accuracy trebs without leaving bureaucracy. The invasion force is a mix of accuracy trebs and cavalry:

Civ4ScreenShot0015.jpg


Tech at invasion:

Civ4ScreenShot0016.jpg


I take 4 cities and he caps.

Civ4ScreenShot0017.jpg


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Next up we have china, since giggles and cyrus have a DP I want the tactical help of mao.

Civ4ScreenShot0019.jpg


I take 3 cities and it isn't enough. Finally his SoD shows up and fortunately it wasn't fully upgraded yet so it gets DESTROYED by my cav/cannon, and

Civ4ScreenShot0020.jpg


Now how to deal with this cyrus/giggles DP? Piss off gilgamesh enough I guess :p

Civ4ScreenShot0021.jpg


I had very lightly garrisoned chinese cities. The reason was that I wanted to gift them back but doing so would let mao break free (!). Giggles declared a little before I was ready and took them on the east flank. However, my standing army there was able to take them and had barely enough oomph to take one of his actual cities. Part of the reason is that he had infantry and fighters to my cav/cannon. Not to worry, though. The western flank has...reinforcements...

Civ4ScreenShot0022.jpg


Slamming through his cities, I get next to his capitol and he gives in.

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At this point I can finally trade for assembly line, but note that I captured some usable factory/forges before I knew how to build them!

I go for the UN finish and...

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Damn. How's the VC looking?

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Top 5 cities/wonders tells me UN is in argos, which is convenient since it looks like I have to take that to prevent culture. OK then.

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Well, obviously those city captures gave me the pop I was just shy of before. Apparently I also resurrected the AP (it transferred from someone with mass media to someone who was long away from electricity, combustion, etc). But this ended before I could milk the AP it seems!

Civ4ScreenShot0028.jpg


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Whabam! Game over. Was looking good for conquest/dom too. Oh well. End stats:

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All I can say is, shove the axes. Give me BFC horses any day!

 
@TMIT
Spoiler :
Why didn't you settle Orleans 1SW? It could have picked up some clams and gotten less desert. Also there would be no need to share those pigs.
 
@TMIT
Spoiler :
Why didn't you settle Orleans 1SW? It could have picked up some clams and gotten less desert. Also there would be no need to share those pigs.

Spoiler :


At the time I settled it, I wanted gold ASAP. I was in caste, so border pop wasn't an issue, however, not having fishing was an issue. Also, the city sharing it was a barb city and I wasn't sure I'd be able to get down there before AC took the city (prats are ownage vs barb cities even in AI hands) and that pig is better mine than his...and it would let me block should I have lost the barb site.

All 3 cities (I eventually settled the clams too) turned into productive cities over time, so what I really needed was the NOW consideration ;).

 
I want to settle 2E1S, that gives me 4 flood plains which will allow me to go for the oracle and grab civil service. And with the hills and grassland the capital with bureaucracy will be very strong. I played 38 turns and have to think a minute before I continue :)

Immortal/Normal
Spoiler :

I explored the area and realized I've got water all around and Shaka right next to me. I want to now go for the Great Lighthouse as well as the oracle. This will allow me pack in 8 or 9 useful coastal cities. I have to think a minute to see if I can get them both and hope Shaka expands the other way a bit before DOW'g me. I see no copper.. but should be able to play defense after bureaucracy.
 
I want to settle 2E1S, that gives me 4 flood plains which will allow me to go for the oracle and grab civil service. And with the hills and grassland the capital with bureaucracy will be very strong. I played 38 turns and have to think a minute before I continue :)

Immortal/Normal
Spoiler :

I explored the area and realized I've got water all around and Shaka right next to me. I want to now go for the Great Lighthouse as well as the oracle. This will allow me pack in 8 or 9 useful coastal cities. I have to think a minute to see if I can get them both and hope Shaka expands the other way a bit before DOW'g me. I see no copper.. but should be able to play defense after bureaucracy.

Spoiler :
Be careful about getting too wonder crazy against an immortal Shaka. He will DoW sooner or later and if you aren't ready its game over. More power to you if you can pull it off but I would worry about him. Also, are you really hoping to get CS from the Oracle? How do you intend to get maths and CoL in time? Have you met the other neighbors? Are any industrious?
 
@JBossch
Spoiler :

Yeah I've never played immortal and never been next to Shaka. I've met only 2 civs, and am just barely seeing Shaka's borders so I have no clue what their territory looks like. If Shaka DoWs I also am likely blocked off from trade with everyone else. I also usually play epic which means I may be over valuing getting macemen early on normal speed. Heres what I'm looking at:
Civ4ScreenShot0090.jpg

I am afraid of building settlers and just getting DoW'd sooner. I feel if I can get the lighthouse I won't mind giving Shaka the time to settle around me as I can pack in cities behind me on the coast. I'm probably looking at a turn 76 oracle. 85ish? lighthouse.. Having roads and agriculture at the start allows you to get early cottages on the flood plains which makes the difference for oracle->CS. Once you get library you run 2 scientists for a GS to bulb math and you tech out code of laws while building the oracle. I'm going to do this and probably get DoW'd but I don't think I have a chance otherwise since I personally wouldn't know how to deal with Shaka or how to win on immortal without it.
 
To play, just extract the WB save file into your worldbuilder saves directory, then play it. Use custom scenario if you want some extra settings to tickle your fancy. This series was designed for people learning immortal, so most people here will be at that level or trying to attain it, although deity players are welcome also. Hell, if you want to play this on NOBLE, go ahead, but I'm not peeling off the AI bonuses. The intention of this and any other game thread I post is to get better. Play whatever level you need in order to improve. Just remember, there are immortal bonuses and that's not going to change unless you WB edit it.

If you are aspiring IMM+, try to remember to add archery back to the barbs in WB. Every time you don't, a deity AI will kill a kitten, although there are a lot of kittens so it's not the end of the world if you prefer easymode barbs.
I don't understand. If I take the file and double click it, and choose Immortal as my difficulty, I have to add archery to the barbarians in worldbuilder even though it spoils the map.
 
@JBossch
Spoiler :

Yeah I've never played immortal and never been next to Shaka. I've met only 2 civs, and am just barely seeing Shaka's borders so I have no clue what their territory looks like. If Shaka DoWs I also am likely blocked off from trade with everyone else. I also usually play epic which means I may be over valuing getting macemen early on normal speed. Heres what I'm looking at:
Civ4ScreenShot0090.jpg

I am afraid of building settlers and just getting DoW'd sooner. I feel if I can get the lighthouse I won't mind giving Shaka the time to settle around me as I can pack in cities behind me on the coast. I'm probably looking at a turn 76 oracle. 85ish? lighthouse.. Having roads and agriculture at the start allows you to get early cottages on the flood plains which makes the difference for oracle->CS. Once you get library you run 2 scientists for a GS to bulb math and you tech out code of laws while building the oracle. I'm going to do this and probably get DoW'd but I don't think I have a chance otherwise since I personally wouldn't know how to deal with Shaka or how to win on immortal without it.

Spoiler :
I think you may be underestimating immortal a bit. And where are you going to build the GLH? Your capital is not coastal. How are you going to defend against the coming barb onslaught? You are also going to bulb maths on the way to a CS slingshot? Oracle will be gone before you get your first GS. I suggest you play it out your way and post the results. Moving away from cows was a mistake, imo, as was mining the plains hill first instead of the marble.
 
I don't understand. If I take the file and double click it, and choose Immortal as my difficulty, I have to add archery to the barbarians in worldbuilder even though it spoils the map.

Just zoom in really tight to the map and try not to look at the AIs.

Alternatively, just let the barbs not have archery at first, they get it pretty quickly on immortal because all the AIs have it already. Once players know spawnbusting barbs seldom matter anyway...they're mostly locked out by the animals ----> human barb switch.
 
Immortal/Normal - 75 AD - I'm going to need help. I play emperor a lot, but have not yet technically won a game.

Spoiler :

As I said I went 2E1S, pottery first and cottaged in prep for a possible oracle->CS. Turn 38 I had explored out to find Shaka and water all around. I decided to get the Great Lighthouse as well and was thinking that I might be able to found confucianism and get Shaka and Caesar friendly with me.

I got the oracle out on turn 77 at 950 BC. and switched to bureaucracy. I'll attach this save and continue in another spoiler in case someone wants to follow.

Civ4ScreenShot0098.jpg



Spoiler :


After I switched I was planning on getting alphabet and possibly still getting shaka friendly/confucian. But first I decided to go for archery and defend myself since I've been warned and may not be lucky much longer. I did get the lighthouse on turn 85, but I also saw Shaka building swordsmen in his capital. Converting his capital to confuscianism didn't help much as it didn't spread to his other cities before Judaism did so I converted to Judaism and gave metal casting to Caesar to get friendly with him. I was DoW'd in 100 BC (turn 111), but that was enough time to grab the copper and have me 2 turns from my first axeman. This is from where I stopped shortly after.

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His first stack went for my capital, but turned away towards my copper so I moved an axeman and a hills promoted archer out on the forrested hill after them, and he lost the whole stack except for a swordsman. Thats his second stack in the city to the north and I'm likely going to lose the copper city next as I have 2 wounded archers there.

I had to stop though so didn't play the next few turns :) I've never won a game, so I'm not sure what I should be thinking right now. What are my options? Can I take out Shaka and keep Caesar and Gilgamesh friendly for a diplomatic win? Am I going to be able to have a tech lead? I founded confuscianism, but I don't see it spreading enough to be useful - if I manually spread it should I go for a great prophet?

EDIT - Why am I building forge's? :) And I assume hehe but don't know that I am in a good position against Shaka with macemen coming on now. I have no idea what i gave up by going for my wonders and am looking forward to looking at everyone else's games later.
 

Attachments

@Grashopa:

Spoiler :
I stand corrected on the immortal CS slingshot. I don;t think I've seen it above noble in BtS. That is a super late date for Oracle though. It went in 1550BC in mine and I have seen immortals get it much earlier. Same with GLH. AC apparently didn't go wonder spamming in your game. By going for wonders though, you have left yourself at Shaka's mercy. The GLH is useless because you don't have any external trade routes. You can't even run 3 internal trade routes per city because you only have four cities. If you can get maces maybe you can do something against Shaka but this looks pretty hopeless.
 
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